The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[YanderePrincess]

Piercing resist debuff. That helps . . . Dragoon, Bard, and Machinist only. That's not "strong utility."

[Atlaworks]

You get the best utility in the game.

Considering MCH does BRD dps, and MCH utility is stronger than BRD, i'd take one over a bard tbh.

Uh. Actually no, sorry. MCH buffs are generally about half as effective as other class counterparts(Hypercharge versus Trick Attack, Dismantle versus Eye for an Eye, Stun is melee range why is the stun melee range). They're also weaker than BRD is- hell, Misery's End is literally better than Heartbreak in every way(190 potency on a 12 second recast versus 180 potency on a 30 second recast), they only get one DoT, and Hot Shot is just really bad when no traits affect it and other classes get better versions of it, like Monk having Fist of Fire on nigh-passively. The only reason MCH isn't absolutely depressing right now is because their Gauss Barrel has a few uses in bursting, if you blow all your cooldowns at once- where you'll do pretty decent damage for 20 seconds, then absolutely pathetic damage for the next minute to three. MCH also doesn't get Foe or any facsimile of it, nor Warden's Paean... their utility is actually weaker than BRD's. Even their Dismantle and Rend Mind only reduce by 5% of physical or magic damage, share a cooldown, have a 90 second recast, and last 10 seconds. All this on a rotation that is far more complex than a BRD, possibly between most and least complicated playstyles in the entire game... the only thing they're equal to a bard in is the TP/MP regeneration aura, and that's just equal, not better. Gauss and Minuet are both DPS minuses due to the benefits not outweighing the drawbacks- even if you sit still, you do less damage than just keeping the blasted thing off, because autoattacks do more than 20% of your damage anyway, not factoring in movement and cast time...

Not that BRD doesn't also have it bad- Minuet is just really bad right now, even worse than Gauss barrel somehow, and I fully believe that if they have to act like a BLM or SMN, they should get the same damage as one. If they want to sing or promote during that time, the damage reduction is already built into those abilities.

[Picori]

For some reason I thought before heavenward came out that mech was blunt damege.
I remember reading that somewhere.

[Xellos2099]

Honestly if you like it just stick with it it will get fixed if groups can't clear with a BRD/MCH its not the BRD/MCH fault its the group not like your dps is so abysmal that nothing can be cleared

Tje problem rise when you have BOTH a bard and mch in the same party.

[GinUsagi]

Well i have no idea if someone mentioned this already but lets say that its ok for bard to have low DPS because you want to call them support class. now when a hard fight come to the game the healers goes like dumb a** crazy with healing and lose mp and the melee forget to use their TP skills so they need bard or MCH. however after they get used to the fight and get better gear or echo bard will not get a spot in the fight because they are no longer useful and they can do the fight faster without them. so in the end if you see a bard in a party they will say s/he got carried. not to mention that Bard was most useful when it can move, for example why would they put the bard in turn 12 party if the bard going to use WM and leave the Redfire for someone else. Bard no longer HEROez.

[Pluvia]

Tje problem rise when you have BOTH a bard and mch in the same party.

You can still clear with 2 of them but this conversation would prob go better in that bismark ex thread.

[juntaru]

If over geared, yes you can clear both extreme with brd/mch.
But the fact that you need to over-gear to get those down prooves that something is wrong.

[GunsBlazing]

Not sure if it has been mentioned or not, but bard and machinist also have the lowest of weapon damage of all physical dps. Check for yourself, WAR, PLD, DRG, MNK and NIN all have the same physical damage on their weapons, the only physical classes that are lower are BRD and MCH. At current level weapons, BRD/MCH have 7 less base weapon damage. This is MORE than 20 item levels weaker.

Bow, i190, 65 physical damage:
http://xivdb.com/?item/11438/Hive-Bow

Sword, i190 72 physical damage:
http://xivdb.com/?item/11434/Hive-Shamshir

Sword, i70, 67 physical damage, still stronger than bow:
http://xivdb.com/?item/11586/Onikiri

We all know that weapon damage is the single biggest factor in doing more DPS. That much is common knowledge. Your primary and secondary stats are nowhere near as valuable as the base weapon/magical damage of your main arm. So, bard and machinist are already geared for lower numbers. Adding DPS reductions while using buffs, stances that limit movement and any other potential handicap is kind of adding insult to injury since we are already set up to do less damage based off our weapon stats.

Bard/Machinist weapons always have around 9 to 10% lower weapon damage than any other physical DPS or Tank class. It should be noted that 9% less weapon damage equals out to a greater overall damage output loss than said 9%, at our current stage in the game! The higher item level we go, the more this weakens us. The way the damage formula functions, our DPS will continue to fall further and further behind every time higher item level weapons are introduced, due to this 9~10% discrepancy. It was harder to notice in 2.XX, because we usually only went up 10 or 20 item levels at a time. In 3.0, though, we went from i135 weapons to i190, so it is quite easy to see how we start to lag behind as item level increases.

[Underdog2204]

Just saw this and it actually made me lmfao - http://i.imgur.com/uf7JKsS.png

[Ryaz]

Yes bards/machinists need WM and GB buffed/fixed aka blood letter bug. I don't want to see them give up on WM and GB like some of these people want. It makes sense that you trade the mobility for the extra damage when needed but it needs to actually you know be a dps increase lol.

I don't want to give up GB personally. I understand the loss of mobility is supposed to compensate for higher damage, kind of like how melee needs to use their positionals to do optimum damage. I have no issue with that. The problem, as many people have stated, is that instead of increasing our DPS, we actually lose it with GB on. The extra 4% (when multiplied with Increased Action Damage) and extra two attacks don't make up for the loss of auto attacks much less increase our damage. Add in the RNG factor and those are the two big problems with the class. MCH don't really bring any dps increasing abilities to the party outside of Hypercharge and regen for longer sustained DPS. Everything else we have is more of a defensive nature and I'm not sure 5% reduction for 10 seconds will make or break a fight.

Of course, with the latest hotfix, stance dancing is now out for MCH because we can't spend 3 seconds attaching a barrel every buff phase.

As for melee limit breaks, I would agree with you if 90% of the fights had the lb used on a single target. Yes there's adds during a fight, but by the time level 3 is hit, there usually isn't an add phase to worry about. The last time I've actually noticed that people used an AoE LB was during Hard Mode Ifrit to kill the nails a while back. Hopefully future content will be designed with more mechanics that play to non-melee lbs as well.