Major plot hole with Heavensward ending (Spoilers, duh)

[Kauthryn]

Not to Hijack this but one thing I dont understand is this:

I never really got the humans being conduits for primals thing.

We don't really know the missing element, but remember that Iceheart wasn't actually Shiva.

[RyuRoots]

Hm, those are some pretty good points. Still kind of out of the right field, but it does make much more sense when one considers those two factors.

Though, it does raise some disturbing implications if dragons can come back from the grave like that.

It's probably a safe assumption that this level of power is something only the Great Wyrms are capable of (Tiamat if she were free, Hraesvelgr, and so on). It's worth remembering that Thordan and his group of betrayers didn't dine on any old dragon eyes; they picked one of the great ones. We also never see any dragons do anything like taking a new form/body for themselves after apparently being dead aside from Midgardsormr and our friend Nidhogg.

[Berethos]

Not to Hijack this but one thing I dont understand is this:

I never really got the humans being conduits for primals thing.

It's essentially the same as when Titan or Ifrit form due to the beliefs of a group of followers, except that it coalesces around a focal point - in this case Ysale or the Archbishop. Remember as well, in the case of becoming Shiva, crystals were still used...actually in all of her transformations (from the trial fight, being resummoned in the extreme version, and the times we see it in the story). The other Primals take on the forms, attributes, and attitudes ascribed to them by those who believe in and worship them...we see this from Ifrit all the way to Bismarck (and especially ones like Bismarck or Good King Moggle Mog, whose Primal version is different than the original legend/myth and is based on current desires).

For Ysale and the Archbishop, they are (I believe) the strongest source of their particular belief and act as the focal point as a result.

Which seems to suggest that including a body doesn't means crystals don't have to be used (they are, after all, just a large source of aether). Instead, having someone become a vessel for that Primal just means that version of the Primal will be influenced most heavily by that person's beliefs (again, seen most potently through the example of Ysale).

[Kreeon]

Lest everyone forget, Estininen also thought Nidhogg was dead for good at this point. He was also covered in Nidhoggs blood, something that Nidhogg mentions as he is possessing Estininen. He also let his guard down, because he thought his enemy was dead, had both eyes, covered in the blood of his enemy, and also had dragon's blood naturally running through his veins. We also didn't go down to confirm that Nidhogg was dead, no body....no death. He probably went into torpor waiting for an opportunity to seize his chance. We were told through a couple of the questlines that a dragon can heal from most injuries as long as they get a little sleep, so by going into a small form of torpor he was holding what power was left in his body for the opportunity of Estininen lowering his guard. Sorry if I repeated myself a couple times.

Forgot to mention in a lot of magical societies blood is considered a power component, as the blood is the life.

[Allyrion]

We know Midgardsormr can, at least if the Battle of Silvertear Skies before 1.0 actually killed him. I suspect that Mid is the only one who's completely immortal, and the others have a more limited form. I don't think Ratatoskr will ever be able to be brought back, for example, and the same is probably true of the real Bahamut.

I have serious doubts that what possesses Estinien is even the real Nidhogg.
Not in the primal sense though.
I suspect it's more like the essence of hatred and fury that rages within the Eyes taking form.

[Allyrion]

Going back to the scenes there gives some evidence for it.

Midgardsormr says: His unbridled rage hath claimed for its vessel the one thou callest the Azure Dragoon.

The quest journal says: Alas, in doing so, the dragoon fails prey to Nidhogg's lingering influence and is claimed as a vessel for the great wyrm's rage.

That's just a strange way to state it when talking about a ressurection.
It's possibly a primal due to the scene when Estinien is claimed, the Nidhogg there talks about the fury and power of the eye (the power has shown to be an aether source) and the desire for vengeance from all his brood.
He mentions very specifically the things that make a primal and then says to become him.
Echoing the Ascians we only moments defeated.

Also compare it to Odin who's sword is able to turn someone into Odin's avatar.
Now dragons aren't related to primals naturally, but Nidhogg's rage referencing the Ascians may be a hint that he made a deal or consorted with the Ascians.
Such that he may be able to be reborn into a primal.
Maybe he did or did not know that it would not be the same as him. He was crazy anyway, and really he was mostly his rage by the end so it might as well be him.

Still, I think it's going to be a lot more complicated than Nidhogg body died and he used his eyes to claim Estinien for a new body.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

I have to object to the notion of Nidhogg being a primal. Primals typically require prayers, crystals, and some other possible power. Nidhogg has no prayers or crystals. Not to mention that Nidhogg simply existing isn't draining aether. Dragons are a complicated bunch.

Also, please show me where you got the idea of Nidhogg possibly consorting with the Ascians because I really am not seeing it beyond a "really ticked off dragon".

[Allyrion]

I have to object to the notion of Nidhogg being a primal. Primals typically require prayers, crystals, and some other possible power. Nidhogg has no prayers or crystals. Not to mention that Nidhogg simply existing isn't draining aether. Dragons are a complicated bunch.

Also, please show me where you got the idea of Nidhogg possibly consorting with the Ascians because I really am not seeing it beyond a "really ticked off dragon".

I am talking about what possesed Estinien, not the normal Nidhogg.
I'm not saying it's a Primal for sure, just that there are hints that it is. Even if not, there are more hints that what possesses Estinien is an embodiment of his rage rather that the dragon himself.

The conversation between Estinien and the Nidhogg he sees in the eye is:

Nidhogg: Thou hadst done well to resist mine influence, bathed in my power and blood as thou wert
Nidhogg: Alas, in thine anticipation of comfort, thou hast lowered thy guard!
Nidhogg: The keening of my fallen kindred.. their smoldering desire for vengeance..
Nidhogg: Mine eyes have partaken of a thousand years of pain - a pain I will bestow upon thee.
Nidhogg: Drink deep of my rage, mortal...AND BECOME ME!

The desire for vengeance functions as a wish, the eyes themselves are a known aether source.
The Archbishop says the untouched eye they had hidden was almost limitless.
Also, Lahabrea got sort of eaten by the eye-sword.
The fact that this Nidhogg echos the "Become me" of the Ascians could be a hint with these in mind.

Even so, yea that's all speculation and I stated it as such.
It's just interesting the things Nidhogg is talking about to Estinien is the power of the eye and the desire for vengeance.
We know the eye's power is corrupted aether. That makes a recipe for a primal.
Not to mention we're dealing with this whole person transforming into a primal a lot now.

If he is a Primal or not is tin-foil hat worthy. I won't argue he definitely is
That said, that doesn't mean he's the real Nidhogg.

The times they've talked about him, they said Estinien is a vessel for Nidhogg's hate, not Nidhogg himself.
It's almost like they avoided ever saying directly saying Nidhogg is reborn and took Estinien's body.

Simply, it doesn't seem like you would say Estinien is "claimed as a vessel for the great wyrm's rage" instead of "the great wyrm" or even just "the great warm in his rage".

So yea, I think the new Nidhogg is his hate given form.
Though admittedly, that's not much different than the old Nidhogg.
That's a strange type of being then, so if it's a primal....well there's some hints it might be, but they're not too substantive.

More specifically

Primals typically require prayers, crystals, and some other possible power. Nidhogg has no prayers or crystals. Not to mention that Nidhogg simply existing isn't draining aether.

We don't know anything of the new Nidhogg, and that's what I'm talking about.
He just flies away. We don't know if he's draining Aether or not.

Regardless, like I said above, we have the recipe which he mentions himself.
The power of the Eyes and the wish for vengeance from his brood.
We also know the Archbishop was able to stay in his King Thordan form because the Eye had a "limitless supply of aether" to sustain him.
Perhaps an exaggeration but if the new Nidhogg is a Primal (big IF of course) then he will not need to drain Aether for a while since he has the eyes, one being very saturated with Aether.

[Berethos]

I have to object to the notion of Nidhogg being a primal. Primals typically require prayers, crystals, and some other possible power. Nidhogg has no prayers or crystals.

Typically that is how they are manifested, through prayer and crystals.

However, if the Ascians at the end of ARF are to be believed, they are just the "embodiment of mortal will - of mortal desire" and as we see from King Thordan what is needed is aether, not strictly crystals (which, outside of items like Nidhogg's eyes, are the most potent sources of aether available to most). A thousand years of the desire by countless dragons (and one powerful one) to exact vengeance falls right in line with the kind of thing that would necessary to create a primal.

Not that the returned Nidhogg is one, but his return in that matter does still line up with one of the ways a primal can come into existence.

[saber_alter]

I have to object to the notion of Nidhogg being a primal. Primals typically require prayers, crystals, and some other possible power. Nidhogg has no prayers or crystals. Not to mention that Nidhogg simply existing isn't draining aether. Dragons are a complicated bunch.

We barely understand what a dragon's eyes are capable of. without a doubt there is enough prayer-or rage- to fuel Nidhogg's rebirth: the fury in the eyes themselves, and his entire brood. What we do know about the eyes however is that they also could provide plenty of fuel for the summoning and sustinence especially since they are now firmly planted in Nidhogg's skull.

Also, please show me where you got the idea of Nidhogg possibly consorting with the Ascians because I really am not seeing it beyond a "really ticked off dragon".

That probably all there is to it. one pissed off ancient dragon is all it needs.