Mass pulls: don't do this.

**Gorlioliolio** · 06-13-2015 03:09 AM

No, tank after tank comes in and says they get agro on every mob so that the healer CAN heal them mid pull, while those of us who have stoneskin still up as the mobs come together allow the healers more mp regen and have more of a buffer before heals are needed. Lobbing the close one while cutting the corner and sprinting, you have to stop to let the mobs catch up in order to lob another, or you can get to the next pack and do the same.

Like I said with pug df groups I tag everything, but when I play with a healer/dps I know, and who know how to play properly all that agroing everything does is take more time and make the pull more dangerous.

You do it your way, I'll do it mine, both work. From an absolute crapton of trial and error and working with really good healers/dps I know that my way works damn well. Apparently your way works for you so keep it up and I'll keep shaving time off my runs.

To ceodore, I know you played both tanks, I know how to use lodestone, but the stupidity of your argument makes me think you aren't all that good at them. You bring up lodestones, look at my toon on leviathan then, before I took a break from game I had t5 on farm status (cleared it November 2013), made a new toon (the cactaur one) sometime last year and played for a bit but didn't get too serious about it. Coming back for expansion now. I played when shield oath gave half the threat it gives now and rarely lost agro, was running sub 9 min wp normal before you even started the game. You go put together a group of people in half i90 half darklight and pull that off, then come talk to me about how to speed run something.

Edit: I'm not saying craptons of damage, I'm saying enough to need heals before your done the pull. Any heals at that point are always risky because even if you tag everything it's still minimal agro you have.

**Seryl199** · 06-13-2015 03:41 AM

A good healer will react to either scenario, they will both get you to the same place. The problem is when the tank decides to face pull and does it poorly. If they make it to their stopping point with Stoneskin intact, or at least with high HP, then great, proceed as normal. But all too often I encounter face pullers that lollygag about, take too much damage, reach their stopping point and pop FoF > Bloodbath or some other form of incompetent mitigation when your HP is less than 30% and about to drop hard when the rest of the mobs catch up. Healers get stuck in the middle, unable to heal because no enmity has been established, and needing to heal because the tank is going to die. A good tank will pull fast, or pull them all. Bad tanks do neither.

**Ceodore** · 06-13-2015 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

To ceodore, I know you played both tanks, I know how to use lodestone, but the stupidity of your argument makes me think you aren't all that good at them. You bring up lodestones, look at my toon on leviathan then, before I took a break from game I had t5 on farm status (cleared it November 2013), made a new toon (the cactaur one) sometime last year and played for a bit but didn't get too serious about it. Coming back for expansion now. I played when shield oath gave half the threat it gives now and rarely lost agro, was running sub 9 min wp normal before you even started the game. You go put together a group of people in half i90 half darklight and pull that off, then come talk to me about how to speed run something.

That's a cute story. I can't assume either way that it's true or not. All I can do is go off the data from the forums and the lodestone, and according to your forum profile, you only have one character in the entire game, Shaggy Grant in Cactuar, who only has two level 50 classes (3 level 50 jobs is assumed based on Arcanist having both Scholar and Summoner). You also assume that I haven't played for a long time. I also started back in 2013, back when "Shield Oath gave half the threat is gives now". I also have every single class to 50. Even assuming that the other Shaggy Grant is you (not exactly an original name, but who am I to judge?) you still find it in yourself to try to school me on how to play when you haven't even played all the classes in the game, not even by half. I've been speed running since before, during and after your break, kid. I've been teaching tanks the ins and outs of this role before, during, and after your break, and turned out tanks that have cleared T13 with me. T5 is and was a joke, even back then. Go clear T9, and maybe you'll get my respect, but I doubt it if you continue to face pull instead of establishing agro on the pull.

There are more things than just healing that scholars and white mages do. Eye for and Eye and Virus are both cross class capable for white mages, and Eye is one of the favorites among healers to put on tanks before, during, or even after pulls. You also forget (which is surprising, considering you probably have the job) that scholars have a fairy, which is liable to cast a heal on you during your pull. Sure, a good scholar would spam a Guard/Steady macro to keep the fairy from casting during the pull, but some things like a stray Embrace are liable to get through at one point or another. But, because you've been face pulling, the fairy is going to get ganked, making the scholar have to resummons and likely lose their swiftcast all because you can't establish agro on the pull. You make it sound like some out of the way difficult job to do this without taking excessive damage, despite countless tanks saying it's all too easy. You're just too lazy. Even as a healer, I've run with countless tanks in the DF that knew how to establish enmity on a pull. There was no going out of the way, or excessive damage. Most of them don't even eat through my Stoneskin and Adloquium. And if they get through my Adlo, it's never through my stoneskin. And even then, when they stop, I still have enough time to throw out my scholar dots, bane, and switch out of Cleric stance before they need healing. If you can't do this as a tank, then get better. The simple fact, what you are defending is a sign of a bad tank. The agro established by tomahawk or shield lob, yeah, not massive, but still enough to handle a few heals. But Flash and Overpower are much higher than your ranged skills. You just solidified my point honestly. Flash and Overpower are better for a pull than your ranged attacks, and if used properly, by an actually skilled tank, will establish enmity on all the mobs in a group instead of a little agro on one mob.

Edit: Your little break has obviously just established that you lack experience in your role, especially compared to someone who has been playing non-stop. As you admit to not being serious, and even say you're coming back for expansion, when you stopped playing for a bit sometime last year. You've gone about half a year not playing, where I've been going at this non-stop, approximately 8-12 hours a day since 2013. I have the luxury of playing from home and work, and most of my time is spent running dungeons, trials, and raids. Every hard mode dungeon that has been released, I've tackled first day of its release and developed speed running tactics first day of their release. There isn't a dungeon in this game that I couldn't tell you exactly how many mobs are in it, what kind of mobs are in it, as well as the skills they use: Ranged, telegraphed, off global, AOE, silencable, or stunable. Oh, and good job adding your other character, I suggest you do that from the start.

Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

Apparently your way works for you so keep it up and I'll keep shaving time off my runs.

This brings up another question I have. How much time are you really saving if the healer always has to rebuff before your next big pull? Adlo is about a 2-2.5 second cast time, stoneskin is about 2.5-3 seconds (depending on spell speed) and most scholars like to use both stoneskin and adloquium, so that's almost a 5 second wait to make sure both shields are at their max potential before a pull. Does it really take 5 seconds to adjust your running path just a fraction and pick up multiple mobs with one AOE skill? There isn't a pull in this game that requires far, out of the way running on a pull. These dungeons are extremely linear. You act as though you're crossing some great distance to use an aoe, when in fact, you're running right through the entire group on any dungeon pull. I'd like you to give an example of some great distance pull you have to do that you couldn't just run right through the center of the group and still travel practically the same distance you did. WP sure doesn't have this, including the HM version. Amdapor Township doesn't have this problem either. Copperbell Mines HM, no, Sastasha HM, no, KoL, no, AK HM, definitely not, AK normal has the gargoyles, but they are far and few between, and easily dealt with by using shield lob or tomahawk while not changing your path. Pharos doesn't have this issue, Haukke Manor HM doesn't, Halatali HM doesn't, neither does Brayflox HM, Hullbreaker, Stone Vigil HM, Tam Tara HM, Snowcloak, Sunken Temple HM. There isn't a single level 50 dungeon where pulling using mostly flash and overpower requires some drastic change of path or direction. The reason for this is because mobs are 99% of the time always in your path, where they can't be avoided at all and the ones that aren't in your path, are generally able to be skipped in the case of a speed run. If you are able to face pull them, then you are able to pull them using Flash and Overpower.

**Gorlioliolio** · 06-13-2015 05:19 AM

Forum profile only shows the character you have set as your main, is that better? Sorry I just beat t9 on the weekend, have been leveling other classes since I came back to game as I slowly acquired tank gear as I get back into the game before expansion.

You on the other hand have achievements turned off so I can't see when you leveled or started your toon all I have to go on is the forum join date of feb 2014.

And if t5 is such a joke, 2 months for first fc to clear and they all started with gear 20 ilvls below max (just like 10-13), but 10-13 were beaten within a week of patch release. (I know twister was buggy at first but bluegarter did beat it before nerf so it was definitely doable).

There is no point in arguing with you though, like I've stated numerous times, when I'm in a df pug I always pull with tagging every mob, I only sprint/single lob pull with healers/dps that I know. This is only because we really like to try and beat our personal bests and constantly push ourselves on clear times, having tried both ways hundreds of times I KNOW that my way is faster.

And to the end of your earlier post, what I was saying in regards to goad/tp song is that getting them pre-pull on a war will allow you to sprint and be back near full tp by the time it's all grouped up. Not that you need it due to poor resource management but by utilizing the available skills you can speed up your speedruns.

**Ceodore** · 06-13-2015 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

Forum profile only shows the character you have set as your main, is that better? Sorry I just beat t9 on the weekend, have been leveling other classes since I came back to game as I slowly acquired tank gear as I get back into the game before expansion.

You on the other hand have achievements turned off so I can't see when you leveled or started your toon all I have to go on is the forum join date of feb 2014.

And if t5 is such a joke, 2 months for first fc to clear and they all started with gear 20 ilvls below max (just like 10-13), but 10-13 were beaten within a week of patch release. (I know twister was buggy at first but bluegarter did beat it before nerf so it was definitely doable).

There is no point in arguing with you though, like I've stated numerous times, when I'm in a df pug I always pull with tagging every mob, I only sprint/single lob pull with healers/dps that I know. This is only because we really like to try and beat our personal bests and constantly push ourselves on clear times, having tried both ways hundreds of times I KNOW that my way is faster.

And to the end of your earlier post, what I was saying in regards to goad/tp song is that getting them pre-pull on a war will allow you to sprint and be back near full tp by the time it's all grouped up. Not that you need it due to poor resource management but by utilizing the available skills you can speed up your speedruns.

Actually, your profile on the forums shows all characters you have linked to it. I can see both of your characters now, not just the one you set as your main. You can verify my T13 clear though based on my chest piece. It's Dreadwyrm, when I'm in DPS mode for its determination, which only comes from T13.

Goad can be used to boost AOE dps more by being placed on other classes that use TP as a resource, like Bard or any melee dps. More AOE DPS on a big pull means a faster run, even if you only go at base run speed when pulling. As a Paladin, you shouldn't ever be pulling at base running speed anyways, since your main resource is actually MP for large groups of mobs. Either way, if you use AOE agro skills on the pull, your dps can also actually start dpsing earlier. Bard's main spam AOE is instant cast and can be used on the move, so more reason for them not to use TP song unless a dps needs it, because more damage, and if you can pick things up with AOE enmity skills, they can start damaging earlier, making the run faster. Further, Bards don't exactly have massive damage when it comes to their AOEs, so a flash or an overpower should be plenty to keep them from taking enmity before you stop.

**Gorlioliolio** · 06-13-2015 06:22 AM

Ah yes I see that now don't know how my original main wasn't linked as it was the only one linked before I came back and made the cactuar toon.

The problem with a bard starting early is they should straight shot before doing anything, if a mob only has 1 flash on it that straight shot+auto attack+ the next gcd being an aoe means they have probably pulled agro (unless horribly undergeared).

I'm going to assume at this point you are probably a pretty good tank, we just have differing opinions on this so agree to disagree I guess.

For examples of pulls that I'm talking about, have you never had the first pull after boss 1 of wp be something like this?

x=mob
y=standard

------wall------
|x................x
|
|........y
|
|..................x

This type of thing seems to happen to me every run, with the caster almost always being in the top left position, if I'm sprinting I can usually lob top left and then 1 more before I'm out of range, but that takes me through the 2 on the right getting hit by both, if I cut corner I only get hit by bottom right and am usually outside lob distance by the time gcd is done for either of the others.

Edit: a good sch will have SS hit just as or before last mob dies and adlo as I start to run, a good whm will have SS halfway through cast as last mob dies. No adjustments needed.

**Ceodore** · 06-13-2015 08:17 AM

Assuming Y is you, let's do a small scenario. Either you're traveling straight through these guys from left to right, or you're rounding a corner, from bottom to right maybe. You have provoke for use off the GCD to keep from having to trigger your GCD, and you have a longer range on provoke than Tomahawk or Shield Lob. Here's a demonstration assuming you don't use provoke.

Left from right

--------------------------------------wall----------------------------------------------
..........................x1...... x2
y---------------------------------------------direction of travel-------->
...................................x3

provoke x1 first, from max distance of shield lob. x1-3 are linked targets. Even considering x2 and 3 are further apart than 10 yalms, buy the time they reach you, they will be close enough together to be effected by flash. Further, x1 will also be hit by the flash, because his direction of travel is to follow when pass him since you've used shield lob.

Around a corner

wall-------------------------------------------
w
a......x2........ x3
l
l
|.....x1........... _----------->
|.................--
|..............|..........w-----------wall-------------
|.............|...........a
|............|.............l
|...........|..............l
|..........|...............|
|.........|................|
|.........y................|

Shield lob x1 at max range, and by the time you are rounding the corner, GCD should be done, and you should be able to flash the other two. They will come to you unless one is ranged. In the case of a ranged, use other skills that are not on GCD for whichever mobs comes into melee. Circle of Scorn, Spirits Within, or Brutal Swing to establish some kind of hit on the melee and free up your GCD for your ranged skill. In this scenario, your first shield lob or tomahawk should go off at max range, well before you should be reaching the corner to turn. Players only travel about 5 yalms per second unless they are sprinting, and in sprint, it doesn't get over 7.5. So your GCD should be up for either flash, overpower, or another shield lob before then. Make use of your off global skills when necessary in these situations.

WP after boss 1

------wall------------------------------------
|x2................x3
|
|....................._----------->
|................_--
|...............|..x1.___________________
|..............|........|
|.............|.........|
|............|..........|
|...........|...........|
|..........y............|

x2 is caster? Easy enough. x1 should be your first shield lob target. x2 your second shield lob target, and x3 and x1 hit with Circle of Scorn as you round the corner. Or, if on warrior, hit x3 with brutal swing. Sure, it stuns, but the mob will catch up, and your party will be continuing anyways to catch up to you. They should ignore it. If nothing else, a dps might jump on it, and I've already stated that if a dps take agro during your pull, then they are at fault. Further, direct damage on a mob is worth a lot more than healing, and this pull you mention is the first pull after the first boss in WP HM, meaning you still have the second pull up the stairs to grab too. The stunned mob will be out of stun by the time you reach the top of the stairs, and waiting for you when you get back to the corner half way up the stairs. x3, who we stunned in this scenario is also a melee mob, meaning he had to come into range of your AOE enmity skills to reach you. Further, all range mobs in this game do not sit further away than 15 yalms when they attack. This is seen in ever ranged attacker in the game. It's a little built in catch that the devs designed for situations with more than one ranged attacker, so you can shield lob or tomahawk them if they are attacking you. I specifically say if they are attacking you because if they are attacking someone else, their range minimum is based on how far they are from that person, not you, so can be outside of your range. But EVERY mob in the game that is range, has a maximum distance of 15 yalms on their range attacks for this specific reason. So if you range the melee closest, that ranged caster is going to come to you close enough for your tomahawk or shield lob, guaranteed. In fact, if you pull x1 from the max distance on shield lob, the caster should come close enough that all you have to do is catch him with the very edge of a flash along with x3

**Dynalon** · 06-13-2015 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Ceodore

stuff

Using provoke on target which does not have any initial enmity will do nothing, especially if you are only one on enmity list (unless healer is an idiot and puts hot on top of stoneskin before pull ...). Anyway congratulations, you have just wasted your only threat manipulation skill.
SW is melee skill, you must face target and it has quite long animation, which if interrupted will also interrupt skill. Using SW is almost impossible especially if you are sprinting. If you really use SW then you will eat at least 2 unnecessary hits from each mob you have on you.
CoS is too good skill to be used like that, I prefer to use it to establish threat once I stop and mobs are still scattered around, or if I have to keep threat on something ranged (lob + this oGCD).

Regarding those 3 situations you described I would solve them this way:
1) since mobs are close together I would pop sprint before the start of pull, start running, then in the moment I get proximity aggro from the first mob I would flash, that should hit all three mobs, give them blind and prevent them from hitting me, then I would continue to next pack

2) in this scenario I would again use sprint prepull, then run as close to corner as possible if I get proximity aggro I would lob one of them probably x3, if not I would hit x3 and continue running, this way I can avoid taking damage from two melee mobs and if theres ranged one, stoneskin with rampart will eat it just fine

3) in this case I would again use sprint, then when I get close to x1 I would flash it (in case of caster - lob) and then continue running to avoid taking damage from other mobs, rampart if they can hit me.

By doing this I am 100% sure that my stoneskin will be up when I get to the next pack. If I pull three packs by the time I get to the last pack ranged mobs usually break stoneskin, in that case I just pick spot so I can gather everything in one place including ranged and then use Hallowed Ground and spam flash. Healer in the meantime puts regen on / lets fairy heal, switches to cleric stance and holy/bane everything then after Hallowed Ground is done goes back to healing ...

Now lets take look at your way, by screwing around, going into melee range and trying to use oGCD skills you take 2-3 hits from each mob, assuming each mob hits you for 300, you take 2000+ damage which will break shields, then on the way to next pack you will probably take 1-2 hits from each mob, thats another 1000 damage, then again you are going play around with mobs thats another 2000+ damage from new pack and 2000+ damage from previous pack which was running behind you, at this point healer will probably have to heal you if he hasn't done so already, anyway thats already 5k damage into your HP which healer has to heal, but its not a problem since you have threat. Then you decide to keep going to last pack, thats 2000 damage while running with 2 pack behind you, nothing healer can't deal with right? So you reach last pack, use aoe threat skill, and if you are lucky you haven't lost threat to a healer who has healed 7k hp already and healer is probably raging at you anyway because that ranged mob from 1st or 2nd pack is on him for sure so he has to heal himself + a tank who is taking damage from other 9 mobs and guess what your provoke is on cd because you wasted it while pulling and now you cant get ranged mob back unless you manage to stack all ranged mobs with melee and since you wasted CoS while pulling you will start loosing threat on melee pack, because all your GCDs are wasted on lobbing that ranged mob, which is on the loose and you can't flash.

**Ceodore** · 06-13-2015 10:19 AM