A more summonery Summoner

[Iromi]

I should stress though that I am actually an advocate of a more Egi focused SMN. I love my Egi! But as I said before SE have made the call as to where they are taking SMN. So the endless SMN debate is over! Even if someone could bring a flawless idea of how the Egi could work as the job's sole focus, that is not the job SE have made and people need to accept that.

I agree! We can discuss it all we want but in the end SE gets to decide. Ultimately I've decided to try the new stuff and see how it is...

Also I think that what some people want is for this job to feel more like a pet job. FF summoner always was, summon > move > disappear. So technically what we are getting in the expansion (at least how it looks so far..) is more of a traditional summoner without the cut scene with the avatar every time lol. When we took the player poll back in 2012 we were asked which job would we like to see the most? The winner was "Pet based job" well...they really didn't deliver on that imho. I am not complaining about summoner but it does not feel like a pet job, if that is what they were going for.

[Saggo]

However in FFXIV the mechanics of dodging/repositioning are key.

Pacing and position, I agree, are the biggest problems to a true pet proxy. It would split your attention more than you should have, and yeah, constant resummoning will lower your DPS.

Aggro mechanics and resummoning are things even current SMNs need to worry about, though. Pet proxy or a support pet, if your pet dies and the mob focuses on you, you're really either soloing and should have planned for (or at least recognized) it or you're in a party and there's a lot more going wrong.

I agree! We can discuss it all we want but in the end SE gets to decide. Ultimately I've decided to try the new stuff and see how it is...

I'm not holding my breath for a redesign either, it's pretty clear what SE wants. I still enjoy this job, though, just not for the same reasons I liked previous summoners.

FF summoner always was, summon > move > disappear.

With the release of FFX, every major title has had summons as persistent party members.

[SoloWingMetatron]

I agree! We can discuss it all we want but in the end SE gets to decide. Ultimately I've decided to try the new stuff and see how it is...

Also I think that what some people want is for this job to feel more like a pet job. FF summoner always was, summon > move > disappear. So technically what we are getting in the expansion (at least how it looks so far..) is more of a traditional summoner without the cut scene with the avatar every time lol. When we took the player poll back in 2012 we were asked which job would we like to see the most? The winner was "Pet based job" well...they really didn't deliver on that imho. I am not complaining about summoner but it does not feel like a pet job, if that is what they were going for.

Exactly, at the end of the day SE calls the shots. So it's no good bickering with each other about whether SMN should be this or that. I love SMN in this incarnation and I love SMN in it's previous incarnation. However I do understand peoples frustrations, especially if they wanted a more pet based job. But as you say no matter how much we repeat ourselves and no matter how much we discuss it over and over. SE is the one who decides and they have made their decision. I am sorry to those who can't have SMN the way they imagine it but there comes a point where you just have to get over it so the SMN community can move on and finally start talking about stuff that doesn't lead to bickering.

I do agree that SMN's new HW abilities are more in line (mechanically) with a traditional SMN, and of course the Egi will always be around. Which is what I meant by SE needing to maintain a balance. By having the Bahamut Trance as well as the Egi, everyone get's something they wanted for SMN. Granted it might not be exactly how they pictured it but there has to be give and take when balancing a job for a player base with a 50/50 divide in opinion.

People need to be reasonable and understand that a large number of people are happy with SMN as is (regardless of how "Summonery" it is or isnt!) and SE are not going to abandon those people, nor will they abandon those who want a larger focus to Egi. WE WILL see more for the Egi eventually!

[Allyrion]

With the release of FFX, every major title has had summons as persistent party members.

You're using persistent very lightly.
In FFX and FF13, at least, they weren't really party members because they replaced the party.
They weren't really that persistent either. In FF13, there was literally a timer and set limit of moves and in FFX they would disappear if they did their ultimate.

The major difference between the old model is they did a few moves (and had HP in their own right) before disappearing instead of just the ultimate.
The FF13 one in particular was more like a limit break than a party member.

I don't really remember 12 that much though, so I can't speak of that version.

In the end, the change in FFX still retained the "Okay guys, Summon is ready. Let's get out the way for the smackdown."
So not really persistent party members.

[Saggo]

Permanent or temporary, the persisted beyond the spell or action. They could be commanded. They had HP and were targetable. Persistent party members.

Call it what you want, point is they stopped being one-hit wonders 14 years ago.

[Allyrion]

Permanent or temporary, the persisted beyond the spell or action. They could be commanded. They had HP and were targetable. Persistent party members.

Call it what you want, point is they stopped being one-hit wonders 14 years ago.

Yea, they became 3-4 hit wonders.
The HP was just a stand-in for a cooldown.
You gained more interaction with the change but it's still a far cry from being a real party member.

Anyway, you can't be a persistent party member if you literally never persist alongside the party.
Maybe you mean 'controllable characters', because it is true they became that.

[Saggo]

Persistent doesn't mean indefinite, I literally just looked it up. Replacing the party, you still have a population of at least 1 member. If the semantics bug you so much, though, call them controllable characters, the term was never the point.

[Allyrion]

Persistent doesn't mean indefinite, I literally just looked it up. Replacing the party, you still have a population of at least 1 member. If the semantics bug you so much, though, call them controllable characters, the term was never the point.

That's why I said you're using the term loosely.
You could basically say the original summons were persistent because they persisted during their one shot move.
Both the versions before and after aren't like real persistent party members.
But that's not really persistent, is it? The newer summons were still like that, in that they're closer to a powered up move than an extra party member.
In the end, they were still much closer in time used to their previous one shot selves than they were to being anyone you could have in your party.

I only bring this up because it still always retained the idea that the summon was a big flashy burn moment, rather than a party member in themselves.
If they were persistent, that would be more akin to those monsters you collect in 13-2 to be the 3rd party member.
Them appearing replacing the party, being super flashy with a few moves and then disappearing still really sets them apart.

And the difference between that is relevant enough if they actually develop the Bahamut Trance to actually have you take on the form of a Primal eventually.
It already has the flashy ultimate type move. Then if the summon's form is taken, it would at least be replacing the SMN to add a big flashy burn phase.
That would be a much closer adaptation to an FF summon than anything the egi could be allowed to be.

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Don't get me wrong.
I agreed with some of your earlier posts.
The egis don't really live up to the summons.
But I don't really think summons should be pets in the first place.

You don't micro summons like you do pets. They take over.
The games from the main series (other than FF11) with summoner as a defined job gave them alternate traits so they could fill supplementary roles between summoning.
The Egis are here to stay but I don't think they're the Summon part that should be developed.

Summons should be a cinematic burn phase.
Summons should replace the character.
Summons should either do just an ultimate or give you an alternate moveset for that form (like a stance).
Ideally, they could call upon the form of different types of summons but that might be convoluted and they're probably just going to deal with Bahamut.

They should not exist all the time.
They should not be pets.
And they shouldn't be micro'd along your own moveset.

At least, if we're talking generally.
I wouldn't say SE has to change it now, just the emphasis should be into the Bahamut trance.
Which is clearly cinematic, emphasizes a burn moment and takes over the character (should take over more later as the Job progresses).

[Saggo]

FFXII had a 90 second timer, FFXIV I had a 50 second timer. On the sliding scale of nuke to party member, I'd place those two games right in the middle. Big flashy kill right now, sure. Still, both provided measures of interacting with the summons during.

FFX I disagree. You could go start to finish on any fight with them, and barring the intro cinematic, they weren't particularly flashy unless you limit breaked.

We all mostly know FFXI was a pure pet job, but I do include it since it so heavily influenced XIV.

So 2 for 4, either side, if looked at this way.

Obviously we cant go replacing the entire party, so my personal opinion is that in the interest of making concessions going from single player to MMO, pets (doesn't even have to be permanent) are the better method of summoning. They provide a unique creature to act as proxy, targetable, interactive, controllable, while still maintaining agency with the player character.

I like the idea of alternating move sets with forms or stances, though. Very Morpher-esque and I miss that job.

[Iromi]

snip

Well said From the interviews too people have said that SMN seems the most complex and yet very powerful, so this should be interesting!