PLD is a very boring class compared to WAR.

[Instrumentality]

The complexity of being a Paladin has nothing to do with your damage output and everything to do with how you use your defensive abilities to nullify the boss doing damage.


The easiest example to point out would be on T13 and when to use Rampart during phase two. Just use it for Flatten, right? No big deal. But if you pay close attention to what happens during that entire stretch of damage outgoing from Flare Star being cast until the Flare Breath after Flatten heading into Megaflare, you can intuit/time out the absolute maximum amount of damage you can mitigate (within reason for auto attacks). If you wait for two auto attacks after Flare Star is cast and pop Rampart at the end of the second AA animation you'll cover the Flare Breath - Flatten - Flare Breath combo.

"But Eureka that's not much damage?" It's an entire extra healer GCD, which is pretty precious in progression. You can repeat the same thing with Foresight/Convalescence(5s pause) Bulwark for extra Flattens if your group DPS gets messed up due to deaths, as well.

Maximizing those moments in fights where CD timings are critical on putting dampers on boss outgoing damage to lighten healer load for increased group efficiency is really where Paladins shine. Will I ever be super engaged by hitting the RoH combo or timing my Circle of Scorn for FoF? Nah. But I can be endlessly engaged during progression hunting those moments where I can save GCDs for the healers so that they can handle other things.

But in farm both tanks are completely boring me to death. Nothing at all interesting after you've figured out the best possible combination for your group at maximum ilvl for the content. Echo just makes it mostly unnecessary, too. I hope Dark Knight will shake things up a bit for me in 3.0.

[Omskahn]

Thank you so much for swallowing the bait so readily. :3

Pat yourself on the back if you must.

My point, which was obviously misconstrued due to you both stating objectively that the job isn't boring and then saying that it's a matter of opinion, was to highlight that your argument could be tailored to multiple viewpoints with equal merit, thus not meaning much. What I find funny is that fundamentally this thread is about detractors presenting reasons why we think the choice of simplistic design is a bad thing. People such as yourself then state how it can't be a bad thing, just something you either like or don't.

So we can't say that paladin design is lacking, but you can say that that it's fine albeit not suited to us...and that's just the end of it? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Inevitable snarkiness welcome.

[VargasVermillion]

Can't really speak for anyone else but the reason I like PLD are mainly aesthetics if I'm to be completely honest. I like sword and board and the holy knight vibe (which one of my complaints was that is was lacking in the 'holy' aspect.)
But after playing it for so long and using WAR throughout FCoB which only happened out of blind chance almost, I feel the same about PLD as a whole, It's functional and is well balanced but it seems to lack something. It doesn't help that 5 abilities are basically useless due to immunities or have to have mechanics in content designed with them in mind.

I'm in agreement that it needs an actual mechanic or at least more abilities that are important to upkeep. I know HW is adding more combos and a cool utility skill but it probably won't be enough for me to have PLD as a main. If it did have a little more flavor and more skills that have 'some' element of decision making I probably would make it my main.

[Martin_Arcainess]

First off, i'm not saying PLD is a bad class. But after leveling PLD up to endgame (EX Shiva, or Turn 6), and now through leveling WAR (currently only level 32), I can without a doubt say this is the most boring class in the game. There are a few reasons for this. I'm just going to compare skills, and how I feel using them when playing the class.

MRD/WAR:

1) Overpower is a MUCH more satisfying AoE skill than Flash. I personally think Flash is better for enmity, but Overpower adds so much more functionality to the class since it's an On-GCD AoE ability. I'll gladly burn my TP on trash pulls knowing i'm hitting all of them.

2) Berserk adds a very noticeable increase in damage output, with a debuff afterwards that really makes it feel like you're going all-out.

3) Defiance + Wrath mechanic (attack skills on GCD, with high potency and using Wrath Stacks) really adds to the whole feeling of being an axe-wielding monster tank. It helps provide the feeling of your power increasing as you fight, with high-potency attack skills at max stacks. It's comparable to maintaining Greased Lightning / Astral Fire.



Now, GLD/PLD

1) Essentially Flash, then Fast > Riot. Until level 26, you're spamming that combo. Then Flash, Halone combo. Forever, always, unto infinity.

2) Vast majority of GLD skills are damage mitigation....which isn't a bad thing, they are fantastic at their job as tanks. But shit is it sleep inducing. My HP is going faster, lemme use more CDs, ok back to halone.

3) They don't get an AoE damaging ability until Level 50! And it's DoT, off GCD, meaning it isn't even satisfying to use. It's a glorified Flash...literally. Use when avaliable, or when there's no MP for flash, ok back to Halone.

4) The Paladin Skills...really, I think these were the most unsatisfying job skills in the game. Sword Oath grants 150 potency auto attacks, which is quite significant. The problem is that it's 100% passive, it just happens and you have no control over it. I press a button, my DPS passively increases. You don't even get the added satisfaction of seeing your damage numbers increase...it just puts a 50 potency tick by your autoattack. Boring. Shield Oath is the same way, you just die less and hit weaker, end of story.

5) Spirits Within has no synergy with any of the other PLD skills. Off GCD, use it when its up, yay more DPS. Hallowed Ground is another silly one that comes at the END of the road, as opposed to Warrior where you get it before you even cap.


Again, functionally there's absolutely nothing wrong with PLD. It's just that it's supremely boring to play. There's no satisfaction mechanics built into any of the skills, they're almost entirely pure function and number benefits. Warrior has alot of its survivability built into its DPS skills, which just makes it feel way more active than PLD, where I start dying and then just press a button that makes me stop dying.

well here's my thoughts on your comments. There's more to PLD then meet's thy eye.

1. Overpower yeah can damage the enemy but: Flash, dose not break your combo, don't need to target a enemy if you are just Flash, Fast, Riot, repeated then your doing PLD wrong. I can easily hold Aggro with Flash x2, then normal Aggro combo, Flash once a mob is dead and your golden. *then again if you have a BLM who is more F U I'm spaming Fire II then yeah the flash combo is good.

2.Yeah most of PLD's CD are Def but things like Tempered Will is really usefull for Levi EX fights, T9 and not just about anything that if your getting knocked/drawn in you can just say ha screw here I'm standing here not to mention it removes heavy and bind.

3. Yeah I do agree that PLD lacks in AOE skills but the Aggro keeping on COS combied with FoF is good and if you time your FOF+COS right you can get in another COS before FOF wears off, maxisming your Aggro holding and DPS.

4. Again I don't get what you mean about satisfying, what else would you add to make it so? Sword Oath really changes your DPS since most of the time you are in Shield Oath and even when MT or during Tank swaps is to know when you can put it on.

5. Spirits within gives that special place that a WAR can't do, silence which I've used many times in T1, T2 and T9 when on Blue Golem and in dungeons too like Lost city Silence Paralize III.

But to me it sounds like you enjoy doing more DPS then the midgating side of Tanking which is good since WAR will suit you but for me I'm tactical person and that's where PLD's really do shine if people know how to use them. It's more then just 1,2,3. 1 more example. Levi EX, PLD is so far the onyl class with a stun that last 6 seconds. Sawtooth anyone?

[Edellis]

The problem with making the PLD more "engaging" and more "complex" is that it takes a very important variety out of the tanking role---the simple and straight-forward variety. Like how the BLM is the simple and straight-forward variety of ranged DPS, PLD is the same for tanking. And there's nothing wrong with it.

Please always remember, PLD is not a boring class. It is just that YOU find it boring because it doesn't fit the play style that you enjoy.

I actually agree with this unfortunately, and with Dark Knight coming along, i can't really argue it that much. Seeing as all the other classes do have mechanics, I guess PLD is set apart by its absence of mechanics. It's basically the old-school MMORPG style of a tank, where you just keep getting buttons to slow your HP decrease.

But to me it sounds like you enjoy doing more DPS then the midgating side of Tanking which is good since WAR will suit you but for me I'm tactical person and that's where PLD's really do shine if people know how to use them. It's more then just 1,2,3. 1 more example. Levi EX, PLD is so far the onyl class with a stun that last 6 seconds. Sawtooth anyone?

It's not really that I enjoy DPS more, it's just that Paladin doesn't even seem to address that side of gameplay in its design. Paladin is just a really straightforward class. Of course you still have a job to do, your mitigations are on CD and more difficult fights require you to manage them correctly, but outside of situations that DEMAND you to do this, there's really nothing for you to do but go Sword Oath and Halone combo things to death. Warrior on the other hand helps keep itself alive by dishing out damage, so you have alot more to manage, and even when the enemies aren't demanding you to fight for survival, you have the same tools you use to keep you alive to help blow away your enemies.

Since Paladin is 100% mitigation, that isn't really a thing -- if you're in no danger of death, you have no use for 85% of your kit. and that's really what i was addressing. Warrior just has a more dynamic design in that it incorporates DPS elements into its Tank elements.

DRG, WHM, and PLD don't really have "mechanics". DRG is straight DPS, it follows a rotation and pops CDs when they're available. The unique thing about DRG is it's Jumps, but they're not really anything you have to manage. WHM is a... healer, it generally just... has the ability to heal. It is a bit reliant on HoTs, and I guess if there was a bit more focus on that than there is now you could consider that the "mechanic", but for now I'd say it's similar to DRG. PLD has a basic threat combo combined with a debuff and defensive CDs - it has nothing beyond this.

The main problem with these 3 jobs is that they have no "flavor" in terms of actually playing them. Sure, DRGs are cool and the animations are cool. WHM is iconic and everybody loves that robe. PLD you've got like a million RPG fans who love sword and board. But when you play them they just feel like... babies first trip into tank/healer/dps town? Maybe that was the intention, that these 3 classes were meant to be stepping stones for people to branch out into other jobs. I dunno, it's just really strange to me that people enjoy the simple vanilla jobs when you've got jobs that can actually be engaging, complex, interesting, etc etc.

I actually deleted a similar breakdown from my other post where i mentioned that all the other classes that have mechanics. The class I would personally say is closest to PLD in terms of a lacking of mechanics was BRD, although it's not anywhere close to as severe as PLD because of how your abilities build on one another.

BRD is extremely straightforward, its songs are really situational, but even when they aren't, activating them really has no consequence to your rotation. But the thing is that while their gameplay doesn't really change much, the more you level the amount of skills you have to keep track of drastically increases. It's pretty much a numbers game with Bard, but keeping your damage flowing optimally is what they're all about, and that's actually not always as straightforward as it seems.

DRG has positional buffs and jumps. It's not that significant but again, the more you level Dragoon, the amount of abilities you can stack to prepare for a crazy burst combo keeps increasing. Admittedly, Dragoon is painfully boring to level 1-26, but unlike PLD I feel like there is enough reward in the following abilities to make the class more fun to play. Not to mention, the dangers of being a Melee DPS are present since they aren't tanks.

WHM actually does have a mechanic -- its MP bar, and honestly it's probably one of the strictest in the game. I really enjoyed leveling WHM because the class gives you alot of powerful things to work with (high potency heals, AoE HoT, Spell Speed buff, decent DoT and Attack spells, second best AoE ability in the game), but limits you with a simple resource, and you completely screw yourself (and your team) over if you use it wrong. With Black Mage you get the 10 second 0-DPS of shame if you screw over a flare rotation, but WHM there's no Umbral to save you, and no pet to lighten your load.

I feel like when shit gets rough for a White Mage, shit gets rough. You work your ass off. I'd call it the most demanding class in the game honestl

[ManaKing]

Shield Swipe isn't very satisfying and that's the difference between PLD and every other job in the game as for as offense goes. PLD is safe. If you like safe, PLD is fun. If safe isn't fun, then PLD is very bland.

[Martin_Arcainess]

I actually agree with this unfortunately, and with Dark Knight coming along, i can't really argue it that much. Seeing as all the other classes do have mechanics, I guess PLD is set apart by its absence of mechanics. It's basically the old-school MMORPG style of a tank, where you just keep getting buttons to slow your HP decrease.



It's not really that I enjoy DPS more, it's just that Paladin doesn't even seem to address that side of gameplay in its design. Paladin is just a really straightforward class. Of course you still have a job to do, your mitigations are on CD and more difficult fights require you to manage them correctly, but outside of situations that DEMAND you to do this, there's really nothing for you to do but go Sword Oath and Halone combo things to death. Warrior on the other hand helps keep itself alive by dishing out damage, so you have alot more to manage, and even when the enemies aren't demanding you to fight for survival, you have the same tools you use to keep you alive to help blow away your enemies.

Since Paladin is 100% mitigation, that isn't really a thing -- if you're in no danger of death, you have no use for 85% of your kit. and that's really what i was addressing. Warrior just has a more dynamic design in that it incorporates DPS elements into its Tank elements.

Yeah DPS side of PLD is a bit bland *i'm presuming you mean when PLD is OT* but besides your 1,2,3 combo you can help SS members, cast protect on revived members, Cover someone who needs it.

Also your COS will do more damage and I've seen people just saying pop Sprits within when eve but depending on the fight if it needs to be silenced you should save that. I miss the days in T1 and T2 taking turns silencing the boss.

[VargasVermillion]

But to me it sounds like you enjoy doing more DPS then the midgating side of Tanking which is good since WAR will suit you but for me I'm tactical person and that's where PLD's really do shine if people know how to use them. It's more then just 1,2,3. 1 more example. Levi EX, PLD is so far the onyl class with a stun that last 6 seconds. Sawtooth anyone?

WAR requires more 'tactics' than PLD does though, abilities that stun, silence and pacify don't work on most bosses where it would actually matter, most cases the consequences of not doing them are minor inconveniences at worst. Otherwise the content has to be built with the abilities in mind. (which is dumb for pretty obvious reasons). Plds definitely shine, no ones denying that, they are competent at what they do but lack a lot in the game play design compared to pretty much any other class in the game.

[Martin_Arcainess]

WAR requires more 'tactics' than PLD does though, abilities that stun, silence and pacify don't work on most bosses where it would actually matter, most cases the consequences of not doing them are minor inconveniences at worst. Otherwise the content has to be built with the abilities in mind. (which is dumb for pretty obvious reasons). Plds definitely shine, no ones denying that, they are competent at what they do but lack a lot in the game play design compared to pretty much any other class in the game.

Mostly adds Silence/Stun works on, would be nice if they add a something for us to Silence in the later patch, like back in the day of T1 and T2, PLD's and BRD's rotating through who's gonna silence next rather then just use SW when it's up, save it, wait for the time then use it.

Lack of everything else I thin is ok for PLD as it can do quite alot of things that not many classes can do.

[blackcitadel9]

On a personal level I prefer PLD to WAR. I find WAR clunky and disjointed myself (Or I did, it got a bit better after I got to 50, but I still think it lacks a certain fluidity)

However, I do agree that PLD is not particularly engaging. For example in T13, I find myself actually zoning out in Phases 1-3 only really bothering to pay attention in the last phase. The CD procs are pretty much ingrained, as are where I need to drag the boss etc etc. Hopefully Heavensward will change this and make PLD a bit more interesting to play. That said, I have a bad feeling 1,2,3 is gonna become 1,2,3a 1,2,3b, 1,2,3a etc.

Oh speaking of stuns, silences, and pacifies - I think they should do more bosses like Diablos, where the boss uses an instant cast power to protect their big abilities, and allow them to go through for other minor parts of the rotation.