Hybrid classes - SAM & RD MAGE.

[Ashkendor]

I said the interview was old, but it doesn't change the fact that the game has been designed to support hybrid roles, and the battle and instance systems have not changed, so it's still able to support them.

And, i'm sure there's more people interested in hybrid or pure support roles than savage coil, or even normal coil, and both are in the game, this leads to 2 options, they really want to appeal to everyone, but they have to do it step by step in small doses, or they are being hypocrite and just implement what they want to. I want to believe it's the first one.

The game wasn't so much "designed to support hybrid classes" though. The Holy Trinity works. I don't think anyone can really refute that. So many games use it because it works. The possibility of hybrid classes in the future is simply the reason they chose the arbitrary number of 8 people in a Full Party. It obviously works just as well with four DPS instead, so if at any point they've decided that hybrid or support classes simply aren't going to work out within FFXIV's setup, I have no doubt that they'll simply scrap the idea and make RDM, BLU, or whatever other classes they decide to add fit into one of the existing roles. Like I said, we obviously aren't getting it for Heavensward so if it's still happening, probably the soonest we can expect it would be the new expansion. So another year, possibly two?

My previous game has a lot of hybrid classes. You name it, there's a hybrid for it. The problem you run into is that unless the classes are exceptionally well designed, you end up with horrible game balance issues. If they're underpowered, they end up being underplayed. People don't want them in their parties, so they get kicked in favor of stronger classes. Nobody wants to be kicked from a party simply due to their class choice. If they're overpowered, then that's all you see people playing everywhere you turn. Parties with max numbers of that class become the norm and all others end up being kicked in favor of stacking up that one class. You end up either overhauling classes one by one (which has problems of its own) or overhauling your entire class system in a quest for game balance. It all turns the game into a huge mess, which can end up turning players away when new content is introduced that suddenly makes their chosen class obsolete.

SE already has a well-balanced game here and I can't blame them for being so careful.

[Shougun]

I think if they do it like AST it won't be a problem and edits to the duty finder could come with it. I hate when people shoot down idea of it b/c they have change

Hope you don't take it personally mate, don't stop posting about it if you want it - its good for SE to know desires. Its just my opinion they won't work very well with the game's current design, and even if they made it fit - it still wouldn't work very well. SE is very smart though, .

It is true Yoshida mentioned hybrids once before, way back in 2.1 or something. But you have to imagine a hybrid cannot be as good as a pure in two different categories, as you wouldn't want a pure then. A hybrid cannot be so bad that two separate pures can be more efficient in total, otherwise why would you want a hybrid.

A suggestion was to use an in-combat locked stance, that still has significant problems for certain scenarios. How would a tank dd hybrid tank swap if locked to his DD field- this is a required mechanic sometimes. Having inferior damage throughout the fight would make the hybrid undesirable for boss fights (if locked to a certain stance), and matching it so it can DD as well as a tank in off tank stance (in tank mode) is not balanced because you're back to unbalanced pure vs OP hybrid. Also gearing can be an issue, and lead to an imbalance in job usage or general balance as well (if it is just as good as a pure tank when it needs to, and you need less gear to be able to do two different things - why would you do more work for less?). Of course you could just make it need a different set of gear for the other activity, but then you'd get the "my job costs more to play than other jobs" issue, which SE apparently cares about because they took arrows out of the economy (one of a few reasons).

I believe in Yoshida's comment a while ago there was mention to add another slot to duty finder. That could be an issue for past content, having to re-balance everything for mediocre damage or an extra job all together. In the future you'd have awkward moments where a dungeon was designed to be challenging for a tank/dd but you got a healer/dd, or a clear preference for one hybrid type over another (as of right now I'd prefer a healer/dd over a tank/dd, though they could add more opportunities that need many tanks at once). Also if hybrid includes "support" as a Bard may have been, then you're going to really compound that issue of preference. One duty finder role that includes incredibly dynamic and likely problematic results.. dd mix? healer mix? tank mix? debuffer? buffer?. I suppose you could argue that would add spice to each run, but good luck balancing distinctly different jobs and in a way that people would like to see all crammed into one to two slots of random (maybe it can be done).

SMN does have a few niche tank moments, some being nerfed if they outsource a tank though - as SE has shown they don't want (Ramuh). Their healing is awful, dire use only (can be helpful, but still dire use only). Like the other DD, SMN has some support features (buffs, recovery, debuffs). They sort of already build hybrid elements into all jobs, just not to the extent to say "this can DD, Heal, and Tank - effectively" <- as that tends to be unbalanced.

I have no desire to squelch you, nor can I - just gave my opinion :P.

[Renik]

I know the complexity adding hybrid roles takes, they have to think about balance that's right, but it doesn't mean they can't do it. I would be happy with a system that prevents hybrids to be overpowered, like a battle stance switch with an average recast time, that rises one aspect of the job and lowers the other. Yeah a job like that can be completely useless if bad played, but well, we have clumsy mnks running freely and dragoons jumping during landslides, and hard to play jobs are everywhere, even in well balanced games.

It can be done, i think they just delayed or discarded (i can be realist sometimes) them to keep the DF simple for the new players, or at least that was their excuse.

[AzraelX]

P.

Thank you for feedback. I just thought hybrid classes would please the masses as SAM & RD MAGE are quite verstile esp. RD MAGE. As long as both make it to the game along with a Gunblade class i'm ff14 for life!

[Akiza]

Eh. I found the interview you're talking about. While they do mention the hybrid role in it, that interview is also really old and outdated. I'm kinda leaning toward taking it with a grain of salt since plans for things like that can change really fast if they decide that it's not going to work out. We already know that hybrid roles aren't due out for the Heavensward expansion since they've already announced the new classes available for that, and they all fit quite squarely into the Holy Trinity. Either it's fallen by the wayside or it's something that's been pushed to the next expansion, neither of which is difficult to believe. It was mentioned in the recent Time Magazine interview, but all he really cited was the difficulty of making it balanced and mentions the possiblity of a "skill tree". He does mention Red Mage is one of his favorite jobs, but that could mean we're getting it as a hybrid role or that it's just being adapted as a pure DPS. Hell, it could just mean he likes dropping bread crumbs to see what conspiracy theories we come up with.



"Part of the masses" =/= "The masses". If they think it's only going to appeal to a small portion of the playerbase, they're probably not going to do it. If you need confirmation, just look at the design choices they made with Au Ra. :3



How is it a hybrid job? Having Raise, E4E, Virus, and a really crappy Physick doesn't make you hybrid. o.O

Summoner is a combination of Black Magic and Summoning Magic with a little bit of White Magic. Red Mage is a combination of Black Magic and White Magic with En Spells.

[MetalheroD]

Summoner is a combination of Black Magic and Summoning Magic with a little bit of White Magic. Red Mage is a combination of Black Magic and White Magic with En Spells.

Except that it's usually a combination of white and black magic, as well as melee damagce dealing. En spells are an example of giving them white/black magic, because they allow their melee attacks to deal magic damage.

[OmegaNovaios]

Summoner is a combination of Black Magic and Summoning Magic with a little bit of White Magic. Red Mage is a combination of Black Magic and White Magic with En Spells.

RDM is a combination of White Magic, Black Magic, and Physical Capabilities (both offensive and defensive). I would describe RDM as 1/3 WHM, 1/3 BLM, and 1/3 WAR.

However in FFXI, RDM also combines White Magic and Black Magic to create spells that neither can cast alone such as Gravity, Refresh, Phalanx, etc. with the addition of being able to cast all spells more quickly. It has things that make it unique in addition to borrowing skills from other jobs.

Last but not least RDM has also learned to channel his magic through weapons effectively and should be able to absorb more blows w/o interruption making the already unique combination of White/Black magic even more distinct with combat casting.

So ultimately I would say RDM is 1/4 WHM, 1/4 BLM, 1/4 WAR, and 1/4 Awesome.

[Nepenthe]

I hope stances can bring us more class variety, definitely! Deep down I wish they didn't draw themselves into this situation, though :/

As far as red mages are concerned, I think they could be pulled off with the current trinity considering the support features bards have. I love hybrid classes and all sorts of creativity, honestly, and would like it if they expanded the system but I don't see it happening any time soon.

If red mage came in the game the way it currently is, I'd like to see them utilize TP and MP that reflects their physical and magical side. Their rapier skills can be fast, nuke damage that drain TP rapidly. In between the nuke combos, they turn to magic and auto attacks. Give them a buff (I imagine it as off-GCD, non-permanent, but can be kept up often) which allows them to auto attack during casting. The auto attacks work at replenishing TP, and their magic could be on par or so with a bard. Something unique I think they could do for RDM is let them have traits to work off of cross class CNJ and THM skills, buffing them and making them redmagified. Give them Dia; have it do damage and place a debuff that increases damage received from CNJ spells. Maybe have a THM counterpart to that.

So with that, they have burst for adds and can sustain damage and still support. That's just a rough jumble of ideas, but I feel like it keeps some sense of what Red Mage has been throughout the series without needing an overhaul of how they made the roles work. Just getting a rapier class and the fabulous RDM outfit style would make me feel so fuzzy inside though ; ;

[elemental10]

How about making SAM an anti-tank?

Seeing that pure Tanks have large VIT and mitigation, while blocks and parry are generally disliked by the community. SAMs can instead develop on the mitigation chances, having buffs and active skills that will increase their chances of mitigating damage.

They will have less VIT but to make up for it, would also introduce Countering mechanism (like Shield Swipe) more into the game. This will definitely see an increase in DPS if you put some oGCD skills to proc on parry or misses.

Just an opinion.

[Ashkendor]

Summoner is a combination of Black Magic and Summoning Magic with a little bit of White Magic. Red Mage is a combination of Black Magic and White Magic with En Spells.

Eh. When someone talks about a "hybrid job" that to me is a job that blurs the Holy Trinity's role lines. It ultimately doesn't matter that Summoner has access to both Black magic and Summoning magic since those both amount to the same thing in this game - a pure DPS class. When I talk about hybrid classes, I'm meaning something closer to a tank/dps or support/dps. The closest thing we really have to hybrid jobs right now are Scholar and Bard.