o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[Geesus]

To the people who keep talking about the people who like crafting the way it was..

These changes do not change crafting in any way. The system used to craft will remain exactly the same. Random synths will require less Mats but its not gonna be any different. These changes don't actually address the problems that make people not like crafting. I'm sorry but your claims that we are resistant to change because we lik it the way it is are wrong. We are resistant to changes that do not do anything to correct the problem.

Ok Kiote how does bringing back the guild and everything else your disgruntled about being removed make the game (crafting) better? You keep saying we don't know what the hell we are talking about but since I started posting at 1030, you have yet to announce one thing that WOULD fix crafting. Wait, you did, the UI needed to be fixed and when I asked you what you would do you said you didn't have an answer.

[Physic]

Ok Kiote how does bringing back the guild and everything else your disgruntled about being removed make the game (crafting) better? You keep saying we don't know what the hell we are talking about but since I started posting at 1030, you have yet to announce one thing that WOULD fix crafting. Wait, you did, the UI needed to be fixed and when I asked you what you would do you said you didn't have an answer.

i dont think the guild particularly makes crafting better, but some parts of the game arent about the thing itself, but rather how it fits into the world. Some factors fade with time, or are not as valuable now due to low server population.
Having guilds give bonuses::
makes it more likely you can find a crafter in a specific area, and town
creates a gathering place for crafters and puts newbie crafters around higher level ones.
Also provides you starting off with a place that is more central to crafting.

But these issues more effect the world, uniqueness of towns and creating places where you are likely to see or be seen by crafters, not the process so much itself, but yeah it matters.

As far as the treatises, that was a huge part of the progression, and customization of a craft, certain people were better at certain things, while eventually you can get everything, you usually start off playing to your crafting style, if you only made a lot of finished products, you may choose a different sort of training, if you were using it for a sub, you might pick different books, also it gave you a bit of an advantage for cross classing.
It made it so that when you recieved guild marks you would be excited about it, and think how it could expand you crafting choices, and possibly the amount of ways you could get SP, as well as profit.

for example, a person who gathers a lot of their materials as a gathering class, might go for spinning training first on weaver, thier goal is to lower their inventory space, and take low value cotton bolls, and turn them into higher stacking, and more valuable cloth. Now if i was a leatherworker who was leveling cloth as a sub skill, i would probably go for tailor training, or something else more involved in my finished products, i would probably have been buying most my cloth, and not want to bother making it if i could avoid it.

So yeah these things take a lot of the depth and entertainment out of the classes, guild marks wont be as exciting, you will have less customization and strategic choices to make. It just doesnt improve crafting as a game. I get the feeling the overall goal is to minimize crafting as a main path, which has advantages and disadvantages, but if you really want to do that, you should probably gut it competely, i can only imagine crafting for 50 levels to be even more tedious if you dont get any skills and milestones along the way, and make some choices as to what you want to focus on

[Geesus]

i dont think the guild particularly makes crafting better, but some parts of the game arent about the thing itself, but rather how it fits into the world. Some factors fade with time, or are not as valuable now due to low server population.
Having guilds give bonuses::
makes it more likely you can find a crafter in a specific area, and town
creates a gathering place for crafters and puts newbie crafters around higher level ones.
Also provides you starting off with a place that is more central to crafting.

But these issues more effect the world, uniqueness of towns and creating places where you are likely to see or be seen by crafters, not the process so much itself, but yeah it matters.

As far as the treatises, that was a huge part of the progression, and customization of a craft, certain people were better at certain things, while eventually you can get everything, you usually start off playing to your crafting style, if you only made a lot of finished products, you may choose a different sort of training, if you were using it for a sub, you might pick different books, also it gave you a bit of an advantage for cross classing.
It made it so that when you recieved guild marks you would be excited about it, and think how it could expand you crafting choices, and possibly the amount of ways you could get SP, as well as profit.

for example, a person who gathers a lot of their materials as a gathering class, might go for spinning training first on weaver, thier goal is to lower their inventory space, and take low value cotton bolls, and turn them into higher stacking, and more valuable cloth. Now if i was a leatherworker who was leveling cloth as a sub skill, i would probably go for tailor training, or something else more involved in my finished products, i would probably have been buying most my cloth, and not want to bother making it if i could avoid it.

So yeah these things take a lot of the depth and entertainment out of the classes, guild marks wont be as exciting, you will have less customization and strategic choices to make. It just doesnt improve crafting as a game. I get the feeling the overall goal is to minimize crafting as a main path, which has advantages and disadvantages, but if you really want to do that, you should probably gut it competely, i can only imagine crafting for 50 levels to be even more tedious if you dont get any skills and milestones along the way, and make some choices as to what you want to focus on

THANK THE F**KING GODS!!!! Physic I love you. not really but just the fact you were concise and answered that portion of a crafter's concerns makes that portion EXTREMELY easy to understand and by f**king GOD I can agree. Ok so that sucks.

Now, can you possibly clear up this crap of not being able to level if the creation of parts is removed? i get most of it but at lower levels, there's SO much you can level with. I "assume" as I have no idea that this is NOT the case the higher you progress?

[Okiura]

Now, can you possibly clear up this crap of not being able to level if the creation of parts is removed? i get most of it but at lower levels, there's SO much you can level with. I "assume" as I have no idea that this is NOT the case the higher you progress?

You can still lvl up if the parts are removed they'll prob even adjust synths to match this least i hope they do else it'll be like only having lvl 1,10,20... monsters to skill up on on battle classes, i have no issue with the skill ups if they take the parts away btw, i did FFXI and that took me years to get 100 cos of the options avalible, it's just part of crafting.

i think mine and some other peoples gripe is; thay say it's gonna be easier to synth which isn't gonna be true, it's gonna be the same it just need less synths/mats (with the exception of sub crafts). my other issue is the parts are not the reason synth'n is so hard it's the lack of a good buying/selling structure in the game the market wards just don't cut it and for this reason ppl can't get what they need to make armor/weapons easily. reducing the amount of mats needed is only gonna mean less mats you still can't find in the wards.

[Geesus]

You can still lvl up if the parts are removed they'll prob even adjust synths to match this least i hope they do else it'll be like only having lvl 1,10,20... monsters to skill up on on battle classes, i have no issue with the skill ups if they take the parts away btw, i did FFXI and that took me years to get 100 cos of the options avalible, it's just part of crafting.

Makes sense.

i think mine and some other peoples gripe is; thay say it's gonna be easier to synth which isn't gonna be true, it's gonna be the same it just need less synths/mats (with the exception of sub crafts). my other issue is the parts are not the reason synth'n is so hard it's the lack of a good buying/selling structure in the game the market wards just don't cut it and for this reason ppl can't get what they need to make armor/weapons easily. reducing the amount of mats needed is only gonna mean less mats you still can't find in the wards.

So if I flooded, not in a bad way, the markets for mats needed by crafters, you guys would make me rich and I would get the gear needed at a reasonable price? Is that it?! So is the reason you don't have the mats because....you don't want to farm them, they're in areas you can't gather due to mobs/aggro? Why don't you guys have the mats...explain please?

And thanks to you Okiura for helping me understand better.

[Okiura]

Makes sense.



So if I flooded, not in a bad way, the markets for mats needed by crafters, you guys would make me rich and I would get the gear needed at a reasonable price? Is that it?! So is the reason you don't have the mats because....you don't want to farm them, they're in areas you can't gather due to mobs/aggro? Why don't you guys have the mats...explain please?

And thanks to you Okiura for helping me understand better.

can't speak for others but i have all the mats ready for lots of gear, bar 1-2 items that i can't find anywhere in the wards, i don't beleive in selling somting that cost 3k to make for 80k so i always sell my stuff at repectible prices (prices new players can actually afford), and still make a tidy profit, if the Wards we flooded with mats i'd flood it with gear. ^^

the way synthisis shoud be is; skill up items = loss, then gear = profit to cover losses.

[Ferth]

Makes sense.



So if I flooded, not in a bad way, the markets for mats needed by crafters, you guys would make me rich and I would get the gear needed at a reasonable price? Is that it?! So is the reason you don't have the mats because....you don't want to farm them, they're in areas you can't gather due to mobs/aggro? Why don't you guys have the mats...explain please?

And thanks to you Okiura for helping me understand better.

Actually the limited availability in the wards is more to do with the fact that each retainer can only sell a maximum of ten items. So the people who craft for profit will bypass items of lower value for items that they know will sell and will sell for a decent return.

Honestly the biggest problem is that they try to make the market wards a physical place. If the entire process of looking for and buying item was handled through a similar menu as the item search counter alot of the issues could be resolved.

More than a few changes to how the servers work would need to be implemented before something like that could be implemented but in the meantime if they just increased the amount of items people could place in their retainers bazaars would vastly increase the range if items people are willing to sell and would increase the availability for harder to find bits and pieces.

[Ferth]

Now, can you possibly clear up this crap of not being able to level if the creation of parts is removed? i get most of it but at lower levels, there's SO much you can level with. I "assume" as I have no idea that this is NOT the case the higher you progress?

Right now each base material, Ore, logs, fiber whatever is turned into another material. That material is turned into another material, which is turned into another material which can be combined with other materials to make items.

Basically from the base material stage to a final product one item could see three or four synths, and each stage of synth increases the overall amount of materials you have.

2 cotton bolls makes 12 cotton yarn, which can then be use to make cotton cloth, or in conjunction with cotton cloth to make another part.

So those 2 cotton bolls expand to far more than just the synth it takes to make yarn.

And it is those intermediary synths that provide grindable recipes that people use to earn skill.

The proposed change is going to cut the amount of synthable steps in making an item down, which is what most people are in favor of. Because what it sounds like is "When I need to make an item, all I need is this, this, and this."

But what they aren't seeing is that in order to reach the rank required to make that item, instead of being able to make "this, into this, into this, into this, that, these or those." Now they can only make "this into this"... so they need to make "this into this" many more times than they would have needed to make "this, into this, into this, into this, that, these or those."

Or to put it more clearly, in the current system to reach rank X lets say you need to make "this, into this, into this, into this, that, these or those." 5 times.

Or
"this, into this, into this, into this, that, these or those."
"this, into this, into this, into this, that, these or those."
"this, into this, into this, into this, that, these or those."
"this, into this, into this, into this, that, these or those."
"this, into this, into this, into this, that, these or those."

Under the new system you will have to reach rank X you will need to make "this into this" 15 times.
"this into this"
"this into this"
"this into this"
"this into this"
"this into this"

"this into this"
"this into this"
"this into this"
"this into this"
"this into this"

"this into this"
"this into this"
"this into this"
"this into this"
"this into this"

What this means is that you will need 3 times the base ingredient to reach the same rank.

[Wynn]

Good Post

This is exactly right and the crux of the entire problem, at least for me.

[Aeyis]

THANK THE F**KING GODS!!!! Physic I love you. not really but just the fact you were concise and answered that portion of a crafter's concerns makes that portion EXTREMELY easy to understand and by f**king GOD I can agree. Ok so that sucks.

Now, can you possibly clear up this crap of not being able to level if the creation of parts is removed? i get most of it but at lower levels, there's SO much you can level with. I "assume" as I have no idea that this is NOT the case the higher you progress?

Er, if you were reading the thread thoroughly earlier how come you didnt notice Physic's earlier post, which also explained why the changes were bad for crafting? xd
People have made rather good points earlier on in the thread multiple times, but people just tend to ignore them or something~

Edit: also Geesus, i also prefer dyes kept the way they are. xd
It should be a crafters boon to be able to dye in colors not generally found on the market.
Making dyes general will remove that little bit of uniqueness you get from making (or having made by a friend) your own equipment.

Also since you still dont seem to get it, crafting takes a looot of materials.
Suddenly requiring 10x or possibly more of the same base material has nothing to do with being to lazy to grind.

But then, what am i doing talking to someone that probably never played a game where you had to grind for items with a 0.01% drop, shrug.

(hey people generalise in this thread all the time, i might as well do it too )