why am i getting a duty finder penalty after being kicked

[kyuven]

snip

1) There are numerous circumstances that warrant an AFK or offline status that is just SLIGHTLY longer than the time it would take people to kick. It's not something that should be punished. Especially since some people will react to ANY AFK with a kick. You do not want to give these trolls ammo, ever.

2) There are circumstances where a dungeon or trial goes on longer than it ostensibly should. If you did your trial roulette for a quick 15 minute run before a raid, but somehow got saddled with a pre-made learning party that takes nearly the full time, why should you be penalized for needing to leave for a prior engagement? Should your raid group and/or friends have to wait around because 3-7 other people couldn't get their act together?

[Jamein]

1) There are numerous circumstances that warrant an AFK or offline status that is just SLIGHTLY longer than the time it would take people to kick. It's not something that should be punished. Especially since some people will react to ANY AFK with a kick. You do not want to give these trolls ammo, ever.

As I said in my previous post, the majority of times, the penalty is justified, you will NEVER find a system that works 100% of the time and that isn't abused but if the system is overall a benefit, they should implement it. The odd occasions it fails is just something people have to live with. The greater good I guess they call it.

2) There are circumstances where a dungeon or trial goes on longer than it ostensibly should. If you did your trial roulette for a quick 15 minute run before a raid, but somehow got saddled with a pre-made learning party that takes nearly the full time, why should you be penalized for needing to leave for a prior engagement? Should your raid group and/or friends have to wait around because 3-7 other people couldn't get their act together?

Yes, yes they actually should. Those roulette's are FOR helping people fill up parties. Whether its for first time clears or whatever that is what the bonus is for. If you sign up for a roulette that has 60 minute time limits on dungeons, then that's what you signed up for. This is exactly what the roulette is for. Not for people to go in, see that they can't get their quick bonus and dip out.

If you don't like that, then don't use the roulette, personally I can't remember the last time I did one, I just farm coil to cap, because I don't want to be stuck in those dungeons and I made the choice not to join, but if I do join one then I'm committing myself to a DF so I always expect the worse, then at least I can be pleasantly surprised if it's a nice smooth run.

[StouterTaru]

There are people who abuse the legal system. Should it simply be removed?

Criminals are just going to break the new law, therefore we shouldn't bother making it. (Actual NRA argument against any gun control legislation)

[Cazamar]

That and the whole constitution thing. But that is not the point of this thread.

[IveraIvalice]

I prefer the time when my party could requeue for the dungeon we wanted in a DR. Me queueing solo helps other people get in their party faster but me with my own people doesn't help anyone else. By leaving, I'm not hurting or inconveniencing anyone else so why should I be punished for it? Who cares if we get the dungeon we want? It's not hurting anyone the same way it wasn't helping anyone to force us to stay in it.

And at the very least leaving a dr that was a premade shouldn't give the person a penalty for the entire duty finder, maybe just that dr but for everything? That's not even fair. That's punishing us for trying to use one of the benefits of making a premade in the first place. Like I go in, leave and don't inconvenience anyone. I'm not leaving 3-7 other people waiting for a replacement or anything wrong but now I can't do anything for 30 minutes??

[kyuven]

Yes, yes they actually should. Those roulette's are FOR helping people fill up parties. Whether its for first time clears or whatever that is what the bonus is for. If you sign up for a roulette that has 60 minute time limits on dungeons, then that's what you signed up for. This is exactly what the roulette is for. Not for people to go in, see that they can't get their quick bonus and dip out.

There's a difference between "quick" and "this just took 45 minutes and we're not making any progress."

Let's say I have 30 minutes before my raid, and I join a trial roulette to fill that time because, statistically, no trial lasts longer than 30 minutes (pre-nerf SoF was an exception and part of why they nerfed it in the first place)
It's REASONABLE to expect a group to either complete the run in 30 minutes, or figure out that they're just not going to and vote abandon. But a group trying to learn the fight doesn't figure it out, and I need to leave. *I've* figured out that they can't make the cut, but they want to keep trying. That's fine! they can totally keep trying! But *I* can't.
At this juncture, WITHOUT taking vote dismiss into account, I have two unattractive options:
1) Leave and take a penalty, inconveniencing the group I left because they need to find a replacement, myself because I can't get into duties for 30 minutes, and my raid group because they're a man down for 30 minutes.
2) Keep up the futility and keep trying for the next 30 minutes, STILL inconveniencing myself and my raid group, and not doing anyone any favors.
In this instance, a penalty-less votekick is the best solution for everyone involved. I gave them 30 minutes of my time. I sat with them and died over and over as they learned their fight. Now I have another commitment to get to. Why should I suffer for TRYING to be nice to these learners? ESPECIALLY if I let them know ahead of time that this situation may arise? With a votekick penalty, it would behoove me in this situation to ditch them after a single failed pull so i can still make my raid. How does this help anyone?
And this is just one example.
There is a greater benefit to leaving the system as-is than instituting a penalty that doesn't need to exist.
What SHOULD happen, however, is instead of giving a penalty, "blacklisting" the person from that particular group instance, to keep people from exiting and re-entering, which IS a problem.

Oh, and another one, but this one actually argues against my suggestion for being able to rejoin instances you're kicked from: Role changes. In coils for example, you often need a particular role to perform a specific job. Let's say i queue as SCH and end up in a group with another SCH. It would benefit the group if I switched to WHM, wouldn't it? Well, if they kick me, I switch and requeue in-progress, it'll likely match me to that group and we'll have the diversity we want. Everyone wins.

[StouterTaru]

That and the whole constitution thing. But that is not the point of this thread.

Literal reading of the constitution says the government can't stop me from mounting M249s and grenade launchers on the front of my Saab, because "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Any mass murderer that skipped out on an insanity plea should be allowed to own NBC weapons because, you know, the Constitution.

”Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither" is the warcry of the anarchist that refuses to accept civilized society.

[sackm]

getting kicked should have a penalty, because the same player can rejoin the EXACT SAME GROUP THEY WERE JUST KICKED FROM.

[lvlagmarink]

There should be a penalty revolving people getting vote kicked with a system that the penalty only works after getting kicked like x times.. Should work like duty status confirmation that will reset in a day.. There is nothing wrong getting kicked once or twice in a single day, but there is something wrong when someone got kicked more than 3-5 times in a single day, for whatever reasons it may be..

More and more players have been asking people to kick them rather just simply leave and taking a penalty like a respectable players..

[Jamein]

Snip.

I'm not saying it's unreasonable to expect a group to clear a trial in under 10 minutes, most are but my point is you are basing this on that the roulette system is there for your bonus tomes as a daily boost to your poetics/solds. It's not. The entire thing was designed and implemented for people to go in and get a bonus for helping others out, from the low levels to the trials, the only one I will argue that isn't for that is the expert roulette. That one to me is designed purely for tomestone bonus' as its 3 higher ilvl dungeons but we can argue that it's still there for the same reason.

My point being, you sign up in a roulette, knowing that you're signing up to help out a bunch of random people in a random trial/dungeon that needs players to fill it up. Which means, you are signing up for the full 60 minute duration, UNLESS the majority of that group agrees to vote abandon. I've ended up in runs of castro in main scenario before that just took forever because like 6/8 people were brand new, but it happens, I've also had runs where everyone knew what to do and it was done as fast as possible. This is what duty finder is. You get the good and the bad. Its the reason I prefer to cap in coils rather than in roulettes.

So while I fully appreciate that it's a bit of a kick in the teeth, this is what you are signing up for in a roulette, not for your bonus to complete it, but for your bonus for HELPING out. So leaving before that timer is up, or before the party agrees to vote abandon should result in a penalty.

Still I go back to my original point, this is something that rarely happens most trials are done quickly, most dungeons are too, what happens more often is people trying to get kicked so they can get out of a crappy run without a penalty. So again, a system that gives an overall benefit is worth implementing, the occasional good person might get caught up in it and have to take a 30 minute penalty, but we're not telling them to go to prison for 50 years here, it'll happen once in a while and it will suck, but it will fix more issues than it causes.