Another Upset Summoner

[VanilleFang]

summons = buffs?

I didn't realize a Summoner was a buffer. I must be playing a different game.

[Dyvid]

Who says SE couldn't do something like this in the future?

3.0 was the "future", the promised upgrade to all jobs and SE has made it clear they don't want to focus on pets in their only pet class.

I didn't realize a Summoner was a buffer. I must be playing a different game.

You are correct, SMN and BLM are the only dps jobs that don't provide a party dps increase with buff or debuff. Don't believe me, see Dragon kick, Disembowel, Trick Attack, and even Storm's Eye. So why can't SMN and BLM get some love? Good come back though for why SE shouldn't focus on pets.

[Havenchild]

Honestly I think devs and the community lack imagination when it comes to pets.

Ifrit - Single Target melee pet that adds dps buff to melee dps
Ramuh - Single Target range pet that adds dps buff to back line dps
Garuda - AoE range pet that adds back line dps buff
Shiva - AoE melee pet that adds melee dps buff (maybe tp regen so they can spam more AoE abilities)
Titan - Tank Defense buff in obey that can become emergency tank with sic
Levithan - slight healer buff / Crowd Control (mainly AoE push backs and binds to protect Mages from adds)

Whichever brings the most DPS, will become the mainstream. Let's talk raiding situation.
Look at Ifrit vs Shiva: The AoEs from Shiva is going to have less potency then Ifrits attacks. So we have a DPS loss there. So let's look at this TP regen, this is adding utility to SMN in the form of helping the other melee DPS, but if this is too strong you invalidate a Bard, or a SMNs DPS because the Pet is weaker. If a BLM is doing more then a SMN though, you have more of the current problem. Whatever gives higher raid DPS will be the go - to. If Shivas Potency is as strong as Ifrit or stronger, Shiva > Ifrit. If giving infinite TP to melee is too strong, it's going to be balanced with the Pets DPS and if it's not it invalidates Ifrit.

Leviathan - Pointless. Even in progression, nothing will be un-healable among the actual healer abilities. Again sacrificing DPS, for no overall gain. It's also often better to push some phase to avoid mechanics that further increase healing which requires DPS.
Ifrit - A DPS buff to melee? That's at least 3 - 4 classes in any given party. Nothing would be able to beat this, not even infinite TP Shiva. Very strong contender for the go-to unversally.
Ramuh / Garuda - Depends on how much this baseline buff could compete against Ifrits overall DPS and if we use your idea of melee buff, it wouldn't hold a candle to it unless it was seriously OP, at which case they would invalidate Ifrit.

No one needs to be lacking imagination here. It's just a constant balancing act and then on top of that preventing one pet from emerging stronger then the rest. As soon as one is too strong, the rest become bloat and this can't be avoided in a one-egi maximum setup.

[SoloWingMetatron]

3.0 was the "future", the promised upgrade to all jobs and SE has made it clear they don't want to focus on pets in their only pet class.

SE never once said that the upgrade would include Egi changes for the launch of 3.0...that was your assumption, nothing more. So no it wasn't "the future" it was your presumptuous future.

Fact of the matter is, that many people here (myself included) have either claimed that SMN needs more burst potential, or that it needs more focus on viable Egi/new Egi. SE has addressed both of these concerns and chose to prioritize the burst potential first. Then they will work on the Egi, but either way we will have our Egi. All this boils down to at the end of the day is people selfishly bitching that their needs/wants were not met first....but what about other peoples needs/wants. SE has confirmed they are addressing both so we will ultimately get both.

[Dyvid]

snip

Well let's talk non raiding stuff and on stuff we do on a daily basis.

Ifrit - Boss fight with a melee heavy party
Ramuh - boss fights with a range heavy party
Shiva - trash mobs with melee party
Garuda - trash mobs with range heavy party

Last two are break glass situations like the new tank can't hold hate and mobs keep going after healer or tank dies and need emergency tank real fast.

Key word is situation and a pet that fits well. But whatever, SE made their design choice and now we get to make ours. I'll most likely change to Astrologian because it seems like a gambler class that I've loved in FF.

Fact of the matter is, that many people here (myself included) have either claimed that SMN needs more burst potential, or that it needs more focus on viable Egi/new Egi. SE has addressed both of these concerns and chose to prioritize the burst potential first. Then they will work on the Egi, but either way we will have our Egi. All this boils down to at the end of the day is people selfishly bitching that their needs/wants were not met first....but what about other peoples needs/wants. SE has confirmed they are addressing both so we will ultimately get both.

Feel free to review my post and feedback on SMN for the past two years. The community has had many great SMNs providing useful feedback. SE said they are going to focus on Summoner, not summoner's pet so that is that but instead adding glamour for Egi skins.

[Havenchild]

Well let's talk non raiding stuff and on stuff we do on a daily basis.

Ifrit - Boss fight with a melee heavy party
Ramuh - boss fights with a range heavy party
Shiva - trash mobs with melee party
Garuda - trash mobs with range heavy party

Last two are break glass situations like the new tank can't hold hate and mobs keep going after healer or tank dies and need emergency tank real fast.

Key word is situation and a pet that fits well. But whatever, SE made their design choice and now we get to make ours. I'll most likely change to Astrologian because it seems like a gambler class that I've loved in FF.

Dungeons? Maybe the AoE Pets can be interchangeable depending on the buff they add, and what is your fellow DPS true, but their default attack would have to be AoE also, otherwise, the single target pets that are doing stronger damage like Ifrit already can still best the "AoE" based ones if things are dying fast enough, which they tend to unless your total DPS is that low.

Ask yourself right now, what defines Garuda as the "AoE" pet right now? It's simply Contagion. If Contagion is rendered useless? Ifrit wins hands down including on trash mobs.

What you're saying, for example, is adding new effects sure but more to have something different, with no regard to howthe damage will balance out. So basically adding egis to add them without giving them a definitive situation they will ALWAYS be better.

Look at Garuda vs Shiva: If Contagion stayed on Garuda? Unless Shiva is doing much more AoE damage (assuming shes not getting a Contagion like ability also) she won't win. If she IS doing that much more AoE damage, Garuda loses by default. Take away the utility, and whatever adds more damage will come out at the top. Add back in the utility and it's still the same.

[Dyvid]

Dungeons? Maybe the AoE Pets can be interchangeable depending on the buff they add, and what is your fellow DPS true, but their default attack would have to be AoE also, otherwise, the single target pets that are doing stronger damage like Ifrit already can still best the "AoE" based ones if things are dying fast enough, which they tend to unless your total DPS is that low.

Ask yourself right now, what defines Garuda as the "AoE" pet right now? It's simply Contagion. If Contagion is rendered useless? Ifrit wins hands down including on trash mobs.

Aerial Slash has a 5y AoE and Aerial blast is instant 5y AoE. My normal trash mobs don't live past 30sec anyway so contagion is moot point. Ifrit requires positioning next to the tank for Radiant Shield to be useful and his Flaming Crush is only 3y. Also add the fact the Ifrit tries to return to you before attacking you next target adds to a dps loss. It's hard to actually parse since I pop Garuda and Ifrit in the dungeons but I know my method of Garuda on trash mobs and Ifrit seems to make things go smoother and fast than when I just had Ifrit out.

*Note* I did try using Ifrit on speed runs but kept getting mad when he missed Flaming Crush and mob died before Inferno DoTs were done ticking.

[SoloWingMetatron]

Feel free to review my post and feedback on SMN. The community has had many great SMNs providing useful feedback.

Actually I never said there wasn't people offering "useful feedback".....I was merely making a general blanket statement, as the majority of this feedback was either suggesting how SMN could have better burst potential (like the many Enkindle discussions) or how SMN could have a better focus on Egi (like your previous suggestion) that I did not disagree with by any means I think you'll find, and in fact I like your suggestion as it incorporates the utility/support abilities the Summons had in FFXI.

However my actual point was about how you seem to be insinuating that SE are abandoning improving the Egi by making "it clear they don't want to focus on pets in their only pet class" or that they "lack imagination"....those were your words babe.

You can not expect SE to have addressed both of these issues at the SAME time whilst developing the rest of HW. If you think otherwise then you are sorely mistaking the amount of effort and dev time that had to go into HW....SE had to make a choice as to which would come first (Burst or Egi)....that does not mean Egi's won't have a focus in the future.

[Judge_Xero]

I dont think giving the Egis totem like skills would ever be a good idea. Seeing as they have dynamic damage values between pets and varying purposes it would be rediculous to balance on top of how hard it is to balance a DoT class.
Ifrit with a 5% melee passive at current gear would be a 100 Party dps increase.
Garuda with 5% magic passive would be awesome for AOE situations. But....who cares cause aint noone gonna bring a BLM anymore.

[Havenchild]

Aerial Slash has a 5y AoE and Aerial blast is instant 5y AoE. My normal trash mobs don't live past 30sec anyway so contagion is moot point. Ifrit requires positioning next to the tank for Radiant Shield to be useful and his Flaming Crush is only 3y. Also add the fact the Ifrit tries to return to you before attacking you next target adds to a dps loss. It's hard to actually parse since I pop Garuda and Ifrit in the dungeons but I know my method of Garuda on trash mobs and Ifrit seems to make things go smoother and fast than when I just had Ifrit out.

Flaming Crush is 3y whatever he's hitting will at least get hit by it, but why cant you simply have him attacking the mob in the middle of the group? Even if he wasn't. Lets just look at the single target damage.

Three mobs not lined up in any particular way. Garuda 30 second cd is her only AoE attack at 90 potency.
Ifrit's normal damage is 120 Potency but let's assume his AoE is going to hit at least the one mob he's attacking.

Garuda : 3 x 90 is 270 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 100 = 670. Let's say we give her the benefit of the doubt and say she gets an additional attack when she casts Aerial slash for a total of 770 (which doesn't necessarily happen because Wind Blade has a cast time).
Ifrit: (120+ 1x110) + 120 + 120 + 120+ 120 + 5 AAs = 710 (Not factoring in the AA damage) In 5 - 6 GCDs, he's already surpassed Garuda in overall damage if his AoE hits only one mob.

Solely Contagion is the deciding factor.

Enkindle: Both of them are AoEs. Ifrits takes at least 9 seconds to overcome Garuda's, not a full duration of 15. The only difference is the cone vs the 360 around the target.