The whole Summoner "has been re-worked" is sad

[FelixWindwright]

I wouldn't say summon, but perhaps channels? Evoker?

I mean this genuinely without playing dumb, but are we not using the same words to describe a class where evoke and summon are both valid terms to use when referring to a class called Summoner?

As already cited Summoner is essentially meddling with primal essences and in 2.0 the main way was by manifestation of Egi's. However not to get spoilerific but throughout the main story line quest we've discovered new ways of manipulating this energy and the upgrades in 3.0 might actually just be an evolution of Summoner to a different direction (perhaps one thats not popular with some), but I personally thinks its an interesting slant on the class.

[Nestama]

I mean this genuinely without playing dumb, but are we not using the same words to describe a class where evoke and summon are both valid terms to use when referring to a class called Summoner?

As already cited Summoner is essentially meddling with primal essences and in 2.0 the main way was by manifestation of Egi's. However not to get spoilerific but throughout the main story line quest we've discovered new ways of manipulating this energy and the upgrades in 3.0 might actually just be an evolution of Summoner to a different direction (perhaps one thats not popular with some), but I personally thinks its an interesting slant on the class.

Oh I'm fine with how SMN is going to turn out to be in HW, I'm just being nit picky with words.
And trying to make reference to FFIII's Evoker Job (which isn't exactly the same as channelling Bahamut's essence. Evokers could summon, but the Summon would either use 'Black Magic' or 'White Magic').

[FelixWindwright]

I was thinking along the same channels too Nestama! (excuse the awful pun) I think problem is and this isn't aimed at yourself, but people are hanging onto parts of new information and not on the whole picture.

Tri-Disaster as we know it will become Tri-bind, however Tri-Disaster is about to become a Triple DoT application skill to cut out the "charge up" feeling when engaging an enemy. People are focusing on "renaming" rather on what's being added. I see some level of understanding for Blue Magic, but as Natsuno states if we were to apply this logic on all skills then we'd all be super Blue Mages!

SE have obviously tried to plow some exciting stuff into SMN and to see it being torn apart by some with emotionally reasoned logic rather than some objectivity. It doesn't make for a good outcome. It's great people are passionate, but lets not grab the torches, instead lets embrace the tools we've been given and use the class as meant not as people view in a perfect world.

No you guys are right, BLM summons Flare, WHM summons Holy, and BRD summons a song. Everyone gets a summon XD

Akh Morn is a nuke, not a summon. Let me know when you guys can accept it for what it really is.

Dyvid, on a final note might I recommend you take your own advice and accept SMN for what it really is?

[SirDiscoFrog]

SE have obviously tried to plow some exciting stuff into SMN and to see it being torn apart by some with emotionally reasoned logic rather than some objectivity. It doesn't make for a good outcome. It's great people are passionate, but lets not grab the torches, instead lets embrace the tools we've been given and use the class as meant not as people view in a perfect world.

[Dyvid]

Dyvid, on a final note might I recommend you take your own advice and accept SMN for what it really is?

I did that long ago when I first started playing SMN in beta. It is or was a pet class that uses DoTs. Now in 3.0 we got a nuke and the ability to cast the 3 prime DoTs at the cost of a Fester. Nothing that is making me squeal with joy. But it is what it is and if it's no longer fun to play for me then i'll back up my books and find another job I guess. Sucks I just finished Zodiac Brave quest in prep for 3.0 too.

[Mugiawara]

Dyvid, on a final note might I recommend you take your own advice and accept SMN for what it really is?

I don't know why you guys are sending us to take stake when what a summoner is; and FROM the wiki of FF in general and XIV's:

FFXIV.: Summoner is a spell casting job that specializes in the summoning of Primal-egis...
FF Series: Summoners are known for their ability to summon magical beasts to fight for the party.
Dunno what's with tearing people apart about it, you gotta understand people are upset about it. As for Ahk Morn, you summon the things head for 2 seconds and you use it's power. What they could of done was summon Bahamut [Smaller version that's not a crap egi] and let it use his skill himself, not us who has the power. I'll take your advice and embrace what we got. I'll embrace it but never touch it again until it's a real SUMMONER. None of this DoT crap.
I bet without Ahk Morn people wouldn't have this big of a hype because near every response is "BUT AHK MORN" It's a neat skill, don't get me wrong, but they said that:
Y: Leviathan, hmm... I'm not sure whether Ramuh or Leviathan will come first (laughs). I think it'll happen when the level cap is raised, so I really can't say yet.

Just my 2 cents. Bard is also another disappointment so I'ma have to get use to classes not being what I thought they would lol.
So glad AST is a huge picker upper for me.~

TLDR: I wanted more pets, they need to balance other pets out so Garuda isn't always the go to. Buffs are welcomed, but please let's Summoners summon more...summon's lol.
In due time I guess.

[FelixWindwright]

snip.

I don't mean to be rude, but you've take alot of what I have said out of context, which is fine perhaps I wasn't explicitly clear. I didnt say it was tearing people apart I commented that people are tearing apart the SMN changes when from a lore point of view there isn't really an issue about evoking Summoner powers. People are upset, This was never gunna make everyone happy, but if people wanna get nit picky with Evoker and Summoner, which are two parts of the same cloth as far as I am concerned then fine. However, the forum threads at this moment in time at 99% negative about Summoner changes, whereas in game I see alot of happy Summoners. I'm just representing the rest of us saying "Hey, cool idea - I'm happy about where this is going" because this viewpoint in terms of thread titles is sorely missing as we have a plethora "RIP SMN" "It's bad" etc etc.

You're honing in again on something Yoshi-P said a while back AND something he never confirmed "I think" is not "It will" it's merely hypothesizing the future which by that point was a long way off. The problem is if they put Bahamut Egi in the game they would put it at the same level as Garuda/Ifrit to be balanced then that would draw a whole new level of complaints because "Bahamut should be more powerful." So the compromise that was reached as introducing pet glamours to add more skins to pets to give the flexibility of using other primals/carbuncles as the current incarnations do cover alot of bases, which I fully support personally (but again people don't that's ok too).

End of the day the fact we even get to evoke Bahamuts power is "enough" from the reactions I've seen, but people were always going to be mixed when the class is already sitting on rocky foundations from a playerbase that doesn't like its current incarnation, thus meaning a "solution" will never be reached as everyone wants different things for "their summoner". I'm sorry people feel sad about the direction Summoner is going - I was with you guys in 2.4 saying things are pretty bad, but now SE in my view have righted wrongs and done some useful things (not just Akh Morn) like a Triple DoT applicator and adding direct damage skills - that will diversify the current SMN tool kit, while keeping it embedded in lore.

Felix Out ^^

[Lemuria]

the forum threads at this moment in time at 99% negative about Summoner changes, whereas in game I see alot of happy Summoners.
...
like a Triple DoT applicator and adding direct damage skills - that will diversify the current SMN tool kit, while keeping it embedded in lore.

A few problems here, and I'm sorry to pick your post apart like this, but it's an important distinction.

First up, in-game there are a far higher percentage of black mages than there are summoners. This is not a coincidence. It's a more rewarding job, with instant gratification from each nuke rather than the dwindling HP of our DoTs. Ruin has never and will never hit the high numbers. It's the equivalent of a White Mage Cleric using Stone spells, only weaker. We simply use it as filler while our DoT's are up. We lack the real damage needed on killing adds fast, since everything is done to the same tick.

Our pets do one third of our damage, and of them only Garuda has the highest DPS potential thanks to it directly boosting our own DoT skills. However, even then all it does is double the duration, so all it does in reality is free us up to spam more Ruin spells.

What exactly did we get which revolutionizes how we play? We get a skill which applies DoTs which we already have (albeit instantly), so basically a 'shortcut'. And a single 'nuke' which requires stacks of a new buff to even utilize. Unless this nuke is Flare level damage, which I highly doubt, this is a bit of a letdown.

Now, here's what they SHOULD have done. Add a new skill called Modus Veritas. Fans of XI will know where I'm coming from already, the rest of you can read on. This skill should DOUBLE the damage of existing DoT on the target and HALVE the remaining duration. So we can speed up kills by dealing our DoT in half the time. Then, allow this new DoT to be passed along via Bane and voila. A true-to-status-quo skill that people can get behind.

But what everyone has wanted from the start, the only thing we've all wanted, is to have a summoning job where we actually do some summoning. Egi's with unique skills that we can swap out at will so they can all contribute to a battle instead of a singular summon we keep for the entire run. People who claim it cannot be balanced simply don't understand how. It can be done, and it can be done easily.

So, while you might be all hyped up for the update and the single new skill we're getting (because really, Bahamut is the only reason anyone's remotely excited) at least understand where some of us are coming from and why we're utterly disappointed at the update. It adds very little new to the class and practically flips us the bird with regards to new summons in the future.

[FelixWindwright]

snip.

No problem Lemuria, as you might have seen in my last reply I have some sympathy with those who are not happy - and in my posts ive attempted to be as understanding to peoples anger towards the job as I can being someone who actually is fine with how the changes are going forwards into 3.0.

I would agree that the BLM popularity as you said is down to being more rewarding and i agree the current SMN in 2.X is lactlustre in comparison causing many to jump ship - it isn't ideal and SE have clearly put work into making SMN better as a class perhaps not better in a "traditional" summoner way (I'm not a dev so I cannot comment on what they have / havent tried). I didn't use the term revolutionize more from the fact I dont think it will first and foremost, but I did state from what we've seen so far they've attempted to rework skills to compliment the foundations we already have, whether they are optimal for peoples perceptions or not.

I guess in summary I'm trying to say that they've tried and we don't know everything and I understand people will be upset, but there are a fair few of us who are happy with these changes, which isn't always voiced on forums when people give feedback.

So I'm going to just leave it here in terms of replying to avoid it just turning into a back and forth between Happy vs UnHappy just wanted to put a differing perspective in comparison to the overall outcry from it, which I can understand as some people have differing ideas of what a summoner is.