RIP WHM/SCH

[Kabzy]

How can you possibly think Supervirus is less important than Proshell?

Yes, I understand it is a very important ability, T11 been there, done that. However it's still an ability/trait that is learnt as an Arcanist (DPS class), and is directly inflicted on the enemy. So I personally think it's more suited to be shared among casters. Also note that I said 'from a healers perspective'. And also it does not fall flat being on casters, I have yet to see a single coil static group that does not have at least one caster.

As for Proshell being on all healers, I think it's way too early for you to claim that it makes WHM less desirable. WHM gets more DPS abilities, an instant cure (assuming like Lustrate) meaning they can emergency heal while DPSing, as well as another HoT in the form of a bubble AoE. Each healer job is getting more tools, so for WHM to have been the only healer to keep Proshell would have been completely unfair. Also, Proshell does not have 'little' impact. It's a magic defense buff that will last an entire fight, the amount of mitigation that brings to the table alone is immense.

[desufin]

Yes, I understand it is a very important ability, T11 been there, done that. However it's still an ability/trait that is learnt as an Arcanist (DPS class), and is directly inflicted on the enemy. So I personally think it's more suited to be shared among casters. Also note that I said 'from a healers perspective'. And also it does not fall flat being on casters, I have yet to see a single coil static group that does not have at least one caster.

As for Proshell being on all healers, I think it's way too early for you to claim that it makes WHM less desirable. WHM gets more DPS abilities, an instant cure (assuming like Lustrate) meaning they can emergency heal while DPSing, as well as another HoT in the form of a bubble AoE. Each healer job is getting more tools, so for WHM to have been the only healer to keep Proshell would have been completely unfair. Also, Proshell does not have 'little' impact. It's a magic defense buff that will last an entire fight, the amount of mitigation that brings to the table alone is immense.

Arcanist having the Supervirus trait is irrelevant as ACN is part of SCH. Or are you implying Proshell is a WHM trait and not a CNJ trait? The balance perspective on Proshell is that WHM had a permanent buff (unless someone died then it had to be recast on them which could be costly) but it's on its own weaker than Fey Covenant which was seen as the SCH alternative. Bosses don't often have large scale frequent aoe spell spam where Proshell somehow makes a gigantic lead in damage mitigation, ESPECIALLY not in a scenario where it's a matter of life & death like Supervirus actually is.

There is NO buff or debuff that is as good at full alliance damage mitigation like Virus, NONE. Dragon Kick? Weaker. Storm's Path? Weaker. Sacred Soil? Weaker. Stoneskin? Single target cast. Adloquium? Single target cast (altho SCH are getting teh ability to put the shield in an AoE). Succor? Too weak. You'll also notice several of the already great damage mitigation tools already belong to SCH or will do so (AoE Adlo). Proshell being given to all healers is a balance symptom of "all tools need to be present" which is okay, BUT it's not well thought out when SCH never needed Proshell and it leads to the imbalance that SCH now has every major damage mitigation tool in their arsenal while WHM got nothing new in that regard.

I'm really looking forward to what WHM is getting, I don't think they will disregarded or "left behind", but Proshell is NOT a fair balance without giving all healers Supervirus as well. Another thing of note is the effectiveness on Proshell even on long fights vs. Supervirus. Proshell scales on M.Def so it's weaker on physical dps, medium on casters and most effective on tanks but the grand total effect is still very minor overall but yea as you said in long fights it adds up. BUT on the big damage aoe's, Supervirus will be there short of the boss not being targetable (T9 Megaflare, T13 Teraflare) and the difference in mitigation is staggering.

You also can't force groups to take SMN to make up the lack of a SCH, this is part of why Proshell is being given to all healers, so people don't feel forced to take a WHM. You also can't force Supervirus to only apply to SMN/SCH/BLM because again, you can't force groups to take a BLM either. Especially not when we also consider that DF is not classist, it doesn't assemble groups on any other rules than the specific tank/healer/dps setup each dungeon, trial or guildhest is set for it.

So again, saying Proshell being given out to all is a balance decision to prevent classism is hypocritical as long as Supervirus remains exclusive to SCH. Supervirus is from not only a healer perspective but a group perspective is both mandatory and simply gamechanging.

[Kabzy]

Proshell being given to all healers is a balance symptom of "all tools need to be present" which is okay, BUT it's not well thought out when SCH never needed Proshell and it leads to the imbalance that SCH now has every major damage mitigation tool in their arsenal while WHM got nothing new in that regard.

I think in this case it's best we just agree to disagree. This one sentence of yours is why I don't want to keep up this argument, you keep referring back to the way things are now, completely disregarding that we're getting a third healer. If proshell was not distributed, WHM would practically have a guaranteed spot in every team.

And Arcanist having the Super-Virus trait is not irrelevant. For the past few months, have you not heard how many issues are being created from SCH/SMN being tied via ACN? My point is that if they did seperate the jobs completely, Super-Virus would be a utility tool that is more suited towards the SMN, as it is a direct debuff on the target. Hence my reasoning that it should be distributed amongst casters.
As for forcing group compositions, we see that happening already in the form of Bards. Like it or not, there will always be a job that fulfills a certain role in the group. Different jobs bring different utilities, and the most desired utilities will be seeked out. And your point about DF is completely irrelevant. When things (like FCoB) make it to the DF, parties don't generally need to rely on things like Virus to get the clear. Echo more than makes up for that.

[desufin]

I think in this case it's best we just agree to disagree. This one sentence of yours is why I don't want to keep up this argument, you keep referring back to the way things are now, completely disregarding that we're getting a third healer. If proshell was not distributed, WHM would practically have a guaranteed spot in every team.

And Arcanist having the Super-Virus trait is not irrelevant. For the past few months, have you not heard how many issues are being created from SCH/SMN being tied via ACN? My point is that if they did seperate the jobs completely, Super-Virus would be a utility tool that is more suited towards the SMN, as it is a direct debuff on the target. Hence my reasoning that it should be distributed amongst casters.
As for forcing group compositions, we see that happening already in the form of Bards. Like it or not, there will always be a job that fulfills a certain role in the group. Different jobs bring different utilities, and the most desired utilities will be seeked out. And your point about DF is completely irrelevant. When things (like FCoB) make it to the DF, parties don't generally need to rely on things like Virus to get the clear. Echo more than makes up for that.

Of course I reference back to the way things are now. Fact is that right now Proshell is NOT NEEDED BY A SCH. Even if the SCH is solo, Proshell is NOT NEEDED. But you know what IS needed? Supervirus. Whenever people do T13 with a solo-WHM, they bring a SMN for Supervirus. Even with Echo Supervirus is incredibly relevant because of how much of a major damage mitigation ability it is. There's no ifs or buts about it, Supervirus is absolutely priceless in effectiveness. AST could easily have their own M.Def boosting ability be it a long term one like Proshell or a short term one but more effective like Fey Covenant. CURRENT situation is very much relevant when looking forward where SE decides to tell us Proshell is going out to all 3.

And sure, SCH and SMN are seen as having a lot of issues for sharing ACN as their base class but Virus is NOT one of them (nor E4E), it's more on the core of certain abilities such as summons, MP management (and its scaling as SMN doesn't have piety on gear while SCH does), stat bonus distribution (if you play both SMN and SCH, 30 int is better in the long run if you dont wanna spend 250seals everytime you change) and their damage dealing abilities. For the most part, both are absolutely fine because the job exclusive abilities covers the core weaknesses they both initially suffer from as ACN base.
In the very unlikely scenario of ACN being removed and SCH and SMN were split, if Supervirus remains "ACN" exclusive it would be given to SCH, not SMN. But it would make the most sense to give it to all 3 healers in general.

And my point IS very much relevant regarding DF. Not everything has echo from the start, forcing groups to wipe to big aoes in primals before they have enough echo boosted hp to live through them instead of having a healer supervirus the said aoe and live through it easy is a thiing. And it doesn't only apply to primals, even with the 15% echo right now, Gigaflare in T13 is still a threat and any reasonable group even in DF Supervirus' it.

I'm going to quote this part again because this is the really important part that you seem to completely disregard and not understand:

Different jobs bring different utilities, and the most desired utilities will be seeked out.

PROSHELL BEING GIVEN TO ALL HEALERS MEANS THIS IS A THIING SE WANTS TO AVOID SO ALL CLASSES ARE EQUALLY DESIRABLE, EVEN 2 SCH. ¨FOR THIS VERY REASON THIS SHOULD INCLUDE SUPERVIRUS.

[VanilleFang]

Snip.

Not going to lie, this is super confusing. Everything I've run, mostly, has had me (as WHM or, especially, SCH) expected to use Virus. SMN barely use it and BLM use it even less. I don't see Supervirus as a DPS-esque ability.

Also stating that its DPS-esque because it targets the enemy is silly imo. The target doesn't designate the "role" of the spell. While it is easier for them to use Virus, SMN and BLM usually seem to not want to be bothered with using it, just like SMN with E4E. I've run everything except for higher end coils and a few extremes, so it might be different there, but in the majority of content it is left to the healer to use it. Even though, obviously, it would be easier for a DPS just to throw it out during their rotation.

And what do you mean "from a healers perspective"? As a WHM I wish I could use Supervirus.

EDIT:

And Arcanist having the Super-Virus trait is not irrelevant. For the past few months, have you not heard how many issues are being created from SCH/SMN being tied via ACN? My point is that if they did seperate the jobs completely, Super-Virus would be a utility tool that is more suited towards the SMN, as it is a direct debuff on the target.

I agree with this though. Even though we technically shouldn't argue it since SCH/SMN are probably never going to get split up.