Wolves' Den PvP Tournament - The Great Aether Cup

[Logos]

(snipped)

Thank you for responding objectively to the concerns I raised. I understand the points you are making, but respectfully disagree on some of them. Team synergy would not necessarily need to be rebuilt if the players are already used to playing with the rest of the team when they swap in and out, so that is kind of a moot point. Every single team IS eligible to have 6 players, but how many teams are there reading this thread who actually are able to take advantage of this rule? I only know of one team, the team who wrote the rules for the tournament and put it together, who is able to and will take full advantage of that rule and find other competitive players to fill a team of 6. Other teams, correct me if I am wrong about that.

A single player can play every job in the game, but people very typically have a main job they focus on the most. Having access to 6 players allows for more people who "main" certain jobs to swap in and out to counter other party compositions. For example, lets say the dps of one team was monk & summoner with a white mage healer, and the other team had ninja & summoner with a scholar healer. The first team only has 4 players (because wolves den is pretty dead and it was not possible to find extra competitive players), and those are their main jobs, so they stick with that composition. The other team has 6 players, and the two in reserve are a bard main and a dragoon main, so they swap in those dps to counter-comp the other team. That seems unfair to me. If the summoner main in team two switched to bard, and the ninja main to dragoon (instead of swapping other players out), they most likely would not be as good/intricate on those secondary jobs as those other players who main those jobs, so counter-comp would be much more of a challenge. See what I mean? Now if one player is a beast at two jobs, that should be rewarded, because they have the skill to be that focused and effective on two different jobs. So why not level the playing field by just allowing people in 4 player teams to switch jobs, and not switch actual players who main different jobs?

[Ayerro]

It did not specifically suggest to take matters privately, and passive-aggressively used "a little rude to bombard" to politely try to hide the emotions you let out later in the thread. Also, the event has not started, in fact it does not start for about a month. No other teams except for the original poster's team have even registered. I just had to correct you on those points.

"You guys should discuss this somewhere else." This is probably by far the most direct suggestion. It's formatted as a suggestion would be: "You should..." I can't imagine it being any more specific than that.

I would think someone's reaction would be even worse if I didn't "politely cover up my emotions." If I were to be confrontational as opposed to what you call passive-aggressive, this would've been even more heated. "You are being rude" would receive even more flame.

The event started on May 19th as stated in the original post hence why this thread even exists. Registration is a stage of an ongoing event.

Anyway, back to PVP:
I prefer 4man teams. I would prefer playing with people I'm comfortable with instead of a substitution for a different-job-main that would "counter" the other team's job/comp.

[Logos]

I'll clarify: Discussion would be spam in context, and a discussion like the rule change would involve many people as seen presently. I suggested taking it privately because what comes with a discussion is the incorporation of anyone who has anything to say about the topic. Especially for a rule change such as the one you brought up, I wouldn't be surprised if it went on for pages and if it did, it would look unprofessional and badly thought-up especially on the creators' side. This wasn't created by one person but by many who've contributed their thoughts, though one person is representing it's creation.

That is not my decision and I'm participating solely as a player in this tournament. The person representing this event seems more than willing to hear what you and others have to say, but the option for the Aether Skype group might be more sensible. You would be able to be a spokesperson for those who don't want to speak up in a setting with others who want to have a sincere discussion that doesn't turn into a heated debate on what's better.

It seems like others are interested in discussing this here too, though. Just because there is discussion and debate doesn't mean that the event is unprofessional and badly thought-up. Discussion is healthy and helps people express their thoughts, and is certainly not spam in this context. People want a tournament to be fair for every team, right? Achieving that may require lots of discussion, public and private.

I am not at all opposed to joining the Aether Skype group. I'll set up Skype now. Please PM me the details for how to join the group.

[Logos]

"You guys should discuss this somewhere else." This is probably by far the most direct suggestion. It's formatted as a suggestion would be: "You should..." I can't imagine it being any more specific than that.

I would think someone's reaction would be even worse if I didn't "politely cover up my emotions." If I were to be confrontational as opposed to what you call passive-aggressive, this would've been even more heated. "You are being rude" would receive even more flame.

Anyway, back to PVP:
I prefer 4man teams. I would prefer playing with people I'm comfortable with instead of a substitution for a different-job-main that would "counter" the other team's job/comp.

That post did not say where the discussion should take place, it just said "somewhere else". It did not use the word "private", nor did it mention the Skype group.

You can politely cover the emotions up; it is the polite thing to do. It just doesn't fool me.

Yes, back to PvP... So we agree about preferring 4 player teams. Groovy. I look forward to discussing this more with the creators of the tournament in private, and here in this thread with anyone else who wants to share their thoughts.

[Astrapls]

Every single team IS eligible to have 6 players, but how many teams are there reading this thread who actually are able to take advantage of this rule? I only know of one team, the team who wrote the rules for the tournament and put it together, who is able to and will take full advantage of that rule and find other competitive players to fill a team of 6. Other teams, correct me if I am wrong about that.

That's hard to say, and we can't possibly know. There may or may not be teams who can field 6 players. However, you suggested that the extra players be paired with others to make another team. If it's going to be so hard for teams of 4 to find extra players, how are the few teams that can field 6 going to find two more players to make two teams? The option to allow teams of 6 lets those two players participate in the tournament. It's simply an option which makes the tournament more inclusive for the sparse Wolves Den community. I can understand your concern about some players only being skilled at a single job, but that's not really anyone else's problem. Most skilled players are talented at multiple jobs, and it's not an uncommon thing. I know plenty of players who are very effective on multiple jobs both in PvE and PvP. Any team with only 4 players who are each limited to a single job are most likely going be stuck with a one party composition. However, this is their own failing and should not be used as a reason to limit other teams' potential. Additionally, there is nearly a month until the tournament, so any such teams should take this time to learn other jobs in PvP or find more members so they that have more job flexibility.

...but people very typically have a main job they focus on the most...
...Now if one player is a beast at two jobs, that should be rewarded...
...so why not level the playing field...

How is that leveling the playing field, though? A team of 4 with players who are "beast" at multiple jobs would have similar or greater advantages than the team of 6 with their one main job if they're truly skilled.

The other team has 6 players, and the two in reserve are a bard main and a dragoon main, so they swap in those dps to counter-comp the other team. That seems unfair to me. If the summoner main in team two switched to bard, and the ninja main to dragoon (instead of swapping other players out), they most likely would not be as good/intricate on those secondary jobs as those other players who main those jobs, so counter-comp would be much more of a challenge.

It seems like you're afraid of being "countered" and that your team is unable to adapt to different situations. Regardless, you're completely missing the point. The 6 man team thing is not about having counter compositions but being more inclusive, allowing more people to participate. It could be possible that a few people don't have enough for a team of 4 and would like to play with their friends who do have a team. You cannot rule out this possibility, and by doing so, you're alienating target players. Ultimately, the 6 man team setup is beneficial in the inclusion of more players when being unable to make two full teams.

[CeveArthu]

Honestly logos i dont see how its an advantage, our team currently only has one benched player and thats me

I only play white mage (the only other class i have is ninja, which is unplayable due to lag), have something like 10-15% of the total matches played that everyone else has and I'm on twice to three times the ping of everyone else because i live on the other side of the planet to you

I mean come on man, if you really think a 200 ping white mage that constantly has issues with oGCDs not going off is an advantage, just say so.

[Blubbers]

Hey all,

I am planning on reaching out to all of the teams I know over the next few days to solicit feedback over the tournament. Nothing will be off the table in these discussions and I would like open honest feedback from all. I will make an update post and update the original post as well when I'm done.

I would like to let everyone know that I've enjoyed being part of the Den community over the past few weeks, and I agreed to host this event as a way to try to give back to everyone I have shared these experiences with.

My team is far from one of the best, but we've enjoyed all our matches against every person on Aether that has posted on this forum. Whether we're getting wrecked by Ultros' group, getting steam rolled by the Goblin crew (plus holic!), or getting absolutely destroyed by Balmung or Sargatanas, it's been fun, especially when we get that rare victory.

I've gotten to know a lot of you decently well through the solo queue events and hanging out on team speak and I think you're all great. I want to make this event something people are looking forward to and if there's no appetite for it in it's current form, I am open to changing it.

I acknowledge both side's arguments here on the subs. My own selfish preference for allowing subs is that a member of my core group has a sick family member and he has a hard time committing to anything. Often for raiding things come up suddenly, and even for this event he said he should be free but he can't guarantee he'll be free the whole time. He's a good friend an an important member of our group, I wouldn't feel right excluding him, and while I've only listed 4 members for my team, I had a few people in mind I was going to speak with about being alternates. If I'm not allowed to have an alternate ready, there is a very real possibility I may be disqualified from my own event.

At the same time, I acknowledge the issues raised here. The FF14 PvP community is not as big as we all wish it was. Some teams are just barely putting together groups of 4 as is, and the best solution in an ideal world might not be best for this particular tournament.

Everyone here shares a passion for both this game and the Wolves' Den. The only reason we get so fired up is because we care about this, and as a community we're way better off together and unified then divided. I'm looking forward to talking with you all over the next couple days and I'm hoping we can come up with an event everyone is excited about

[Clessx]

So much complaining. Pvp in this game is dying and now that we have a chance to make the pvp community grow, thanks to the awesome effort of blubbers, all I see is people pointing out flaws and complaining.
If you guys truly call yourself pvp'ers you should put all your effort to make this thing happen and not make excuses.

You guys are failing to see that this is about having fun and helping the pvp community.
Heck I won't even participate, if that is an issue, so we can get this thing going. All I want is for the pvp community in this game to not die.

[Logos]

So much complaining. Pvp in this game is dying and now that we have a chance to make the pvp community grow, thanks to the awesome effort of blubbers, all I see is people pointing out flaws and complaining.
If you guys truly call yourself pvp'ers you should put all your effort to make this thing happen and not make excuses.

Is it a competitive tournament we are talking about? If so, people should discuss concerns they have about the rules with the intention of fairness, true or false? Yours is just another attempt to label us as complainers and skirt the issue. What do you think about the rules as they stand of 6 player teams with the ability to freely swap out team members in between matches, and the possibility of changing the rules to 4 player teams with only the ability to freely swap out jobs?

[Logos]

I acknowledge both side's arguments here on the subs. My own selfish preference for allowing subs is that a member of my core group has a sick family member and he has a hard time committing to anything. Often for raiding things come up suddenly, and even for this event he said he should be free but he can't guarantee he'll be free the whole time. He's a good friend an an important member of our group, I wouldn't feel right excluding him, and while I've only listed 4 members for my team, I had a few people in mind I was going to speak with about being alternates. If I'm not allowed to have an alternate ready, there is a very real possibility I may be disqualified from my own event.

At the same time, I acknowledge the issues raised here. The FF14 PvP community is not as big as we all wish it was. Some teams are just barely putting together groups of 4 as is...

Hi Blubbers. Let me thank you again for setting this up and being patient, neutral and rational in your responses.

I have another suggestion, and I will bring this up in private with the creators of the tournament too -- a middle ground change to the rules that solves most of the issues people are bringing up. Allow teams to have 5 players, but still change the rule so that teams can only freely swap jobs between matches, not players. The 5th player will be solely a back-up who can sub in if and only if one of the original players on the 4 player team absolutely cannot continue to play. The example you gave about needing to leave because of a sick family member is a good illustration of where this swap may be necessary. Otherwise, the teams of 4 must stay with the 4 that they play the first match of the tournament with, for the entire tournament. If the swap with the 5th player becomes necessary and is done, the original player who had to leave is not allowed to swap back in, and the team must finish the tournament with the rep. Teams that lost more than 2 players over the course of the tournament, or teams that swap in their 5th player without absolute necessity, will be disqualified. We will have to define together what "absolute necessity" entails in this case.

This would solve my issues with the rules, it would allow for more inclusion (Astrapls' concern), and it would hold up to the original intention of the rule, which was to allow for teams to continue playing in the tournament if one of their players cannot make it or absolutely cannot continue at some point during the tournament.

What do you think of this suggestion?