The Ethics of Optional Item Sales

[Dualblade]

People should be able to change their race and appearance without purchasing fantasia, I mean, it's overpriced and almost equals the monthly subscription fee.

Anyone who needs more than one Fantasia should probably figure out why they are changing so much anyways

[Adire]

All the other MMOs out there charge for stuff like that. They would be losing out if they did it for free.

That is incorrect. Most either do not have the option to change things like that, or do have it but it's free. The MMO I came from before this one, The Secret World, has a mission that you can do every 3 or so days that gives you a voucher to get it freely done, you can pay with in game currency, or you can pay with real money.

If a buy to play game with a low playerbase like TSW can do it, I don't see why a company like SE with a game like FFXIV on a sub model can't.

Unless you make the case that a business should do whatever is most profitable, regardless of the morality. I disagree with supporting that sentiment and it's a dangerous thing for customers to support it, and you may or may not agree, but that's a discussion for another time and place.

[Madepossible]

Anyone who needs more than one Fantasia should probably figure out why they are changing so much anyways

Whahaha ask idksparky my gawd every week he changes to lalafel then miquote! Ok he must be rich xD

[GenJoe]

I feel like both of you are, perhaps, new to MMOs. And I define "new" as someone who hasn't been participating in MMO games since they began to gain popularity back in the 90's. Those of us that did game since that period were around when a subscription fee allowed players to access all content added to the game (without having to pay additional fees beyond the monthly sub).

No, I've been playing MMOs since the early 2000s, 2001-2002ish. I admit, I didn't start off with any of the iconic classics like Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, or even Lineage, but I've been around the scene long enough to remember the days when cash shops were non-existent. Like I said, I've never bought any premium features on cash shops myself, but if that's the direction SE chooses to go as a corporation, I don't believe myself to be so damn entitled for paying a measly $15 a month to demand that they provide me with all the perks.

For better or worse, evolution happens, and there will likely come a day when no one bats an eye at cash shops or DLC. We're not there yet, nor likely to be there for some time, and until then threads like this are perfectly understandable (although obviously bound to be controversial as different generations of gamers clash).

You're exactly right, the evolution HAS happened, You may not be there, but I am. I've come to accept it for what it is, and I've chosen to embrace it, in a manner that is positive to the game, which I think SE's cash shop could use a bit of tweaking. Largely, expanding the vanity/mount sold on the shop, and introducing game-time items as a tradable in-game item. Let the players control the economy. Let US determine what gil is worth in dollars, not some smarmy gil botters.

P.S. We can get into the whole debate of real money vs. game money stuff here, but I'll just make it clear. As long as there's no abuse (account hacking, paypal scams, botting) involved, I'm perfectly fine with people trading one for the other, as long as both parties are aware of exactly what one is paying for.

Really, that shouldn't be any different than my friend buying me dinner for getting a group together to run him through contents or crafting him a set of items.. Except the voluntary part, but hey, nothing brings strangers together like a business transaction.

[DreadRabbit]

Let the players control the economy. Let US determine what gil is worth in dollars, not some smarmy gil botters.

We already do. Buyers (and I mean players buying anything in game or buying from gil sellers) determine the average prices of items sold. If people didn't agree with the gil botters' prices, then we wouldn't be having this problem because no one would be buying from them.

Everything you just said you can already do with items in game. Why on Earth do you need premium items to do the same things? People are already buying gil because they want easier access to what's already here. How is adding more items to the pool of things players want going to change that at all? If you really want to get in on the premium item trading that badly, then go buy some EB bracelets and go to town.

Back to OP: SE's cash shop hasn't done anything yet to warrant criticism and calling out as being unethical. Cash shops are a norm, and as long as things are purely vanity and are in some way controlled, I have no issues with it.

[GenJoe]

We already do. Buyers (and I mean players buying anything in game or buying from gil sellers) determine the average prices of items sold. If people didn't agree with the gil botters' prices, then we wouldn't be having this problem because no one would be buying from them.

Everything you just said you can already do with items in game. Why on Earth do you need premium items to do the same things? People are already buying gil because they want easier access to what's already here. How is adding more items to the pool of things players want going to change that at all? If you really want to get in on the premium item trading that badly, then go buy some EB bracelets and go to town.

Back to OP: SE's cash shop hasn't done anything yet to warrant criticism and calling out as being unethical. Cash shops are a norm, and as long as things are purely vanity and are in some way controlled, I have no issues with it.

No, I personally take little interest in premium items, or vanity gear for that matter.. Which is part of the reason why I've never bought anything from cash shop..

What I AM saying is, if the gil <-> $ was controlled by players, then gil prices would drop significantly, RMT won't be as profitable, botting won't be as profitable, AND it will open up the pockets of crafters who are hoarding hundreds of millions, if not billions of gil and have nothing to spend them on, thus make the economy healthier.
I say this for a couple reasons:

1. Legitimizing the gil <-> $ trade will eliminate the back alley premium that RMT companies currently have, once everybody's in on it (not everybody WILL participate, but it will make the pool larger for sure) gil prices WILL drop as a result because of:

a. Reduced risk, Current gil prices are determined with the cost of new account built-in. PLUS quite a bit of labor costs. Majority of players don't calculate their gil as being worth as much as companies do, less overhead and less determination to make a real profit.

b. Increased competition, once a majority of the player base is enabled in the gil-trade, the legitimate kind.. It will drive the prices down. Simple fact, RMT profitability will also drop.


2. Crafter money going back into circulation.
There's a reason taking real life currency out of circulation is a crime, because it is a detriment to the economy. Looking at the current situation of things, many crafters are sitting on hundreds of millions of gil and have nothing to spend it on.. More money gets produced, more money goes to the crafters, and it stays there.. Eventually, economy WILL crash with this model. You already see few crafters that are able to crash the MB single-handedly, let people trade gil for cash shop items, and you will open up their wallets, provide a little boost the economy needs, and maybe even restart from square one, give everybody a fair chance. Chances are, the crafters will STILL make their way back up to their riches, but the point is, the money WILL move given enough motivation. Right now, there is no motivation for the money to change hands.

[DreadRabbit]

No, I personally take little interest in premium items, or vanity gear for that matter.. Which is part of the reason why I've never bought anything from cash shop..

What I AM saying is, if the gil <-> $ was controlled by players, then gil prices would drop significantly, RMT won't be as profitable, botting won't be as profitable, AND it will open up the pockets of crafters who are hoarding hundreds of millions, if not billions of gil and have nothing to spend them on, thus make the economy healthier.
I say this for a couple reasons:

1. Legitimizing the gil <-> $ trade will eliminate the back alley premium that RMT companies currently have, once everybody's in on it (not everybody WILL participate, but it will make the pool larger for sure) gil prices WILL drop as a result because of:

a. Reduced risk, Current gil prices are determined with the cost of new account built-in. PLUS quite a bit of labor costs. Majority of players don't calculate their gil as being worth as much as companies do, less overhead and less determination to make a real profit.

b. Increased competition, once a majority of the player base is enabled in the gil-trade, the legitimate kind.. It will drive the prices down. Simple fact, RMT profitability will also drop.


2. Crafter money going back into circulation.
There's a reason taking real life currency out of circulation is a crime, because it is a detriment to the economy. Looking at the current situation of things, many crafters are sitting on hundreds of millions of gil and have nothing to spend it on.. More money gets produced, more money goes to the crafters, and it stays there.. Eventually, economy WILL crash with this model. You already see few crafters that are able to crash the MB single-handedly, let people trade gil for cash shop items, and you will open up their wallets, provide a little boost the economy needs, and maybe even restart from square one, give everybody a fair chance. Chances are, the crafters will STILL make their way back up to their riches, but the point is, the money WILL move given enough motivation. Right now, there is no motivation for the money to change hands.

Okay, while that all sounds good on paper, here's what I've seen actually happen in games that follow your logic. Wall of text incoming, my apologies. I've put in a spoiler for those who don't want to see it.

1. So premium items become tradeable between players. Or as you say, trading money to gil is legitimized. Players also have the freedom to price these as they see fit.

2. Now it's time for the market to work it's magic. This part is difficult to predict because there's several variables. BUT let's assume in general most vanity cash shop items would indeed be things people want. The first few people test the waters and set prices. What you don't take into consideration is how people currently make their gil off the player market: instant gratification. Players want things and they want them now. And there is always a population of players who already have a great deal of gil in their pockets that don't care what the prices are set to because they can afford whatever price. Nothing wrong with that, just stating this for later.

3. People see the prices of these vanity items are suddenly worth a decent bit of gil, so they join in on this item trade. Suddenly you see an influx of "newly rich" players with the same "I want it and I want it now" mentality. They immediately take their new gil to the market boards so that they can purchase whatever in-game vanity they've been saving for. Or in the case of newer players, possibly mats to level their crafting. Again, not caring if they're paying the higher priced goods (let's say 300 gil per mat/shard vs 95) because they suddenly have the money to throw away on it. They start raising the prices for those. Again, this is an inflation to be expected.

4. Here's where your argument starts to falter: what are the majority of characters that do the DoL gathering classes? RMT bots. There's plenty of legit players (including myself) that use the DoL classes to get a starting capital to level their crafting classes. However there's a reason why RMT bots abuse mining: shards and crafting materials. You can make 120k-300k with anywhere between 2-4 hours of nonstop gathering as a level 1 miner if you know where to go. That's how the bot portion of RMT does it.

So yes, while players do see the benefit of more profits coming in from even gathering classes, so does the RMT bots. They all get as much of a gil increase as the rest of us do, and in less time. Their stocks of gil rises, which allows them to be far more flexible with their prices than you think.

5. There is no "restart" when this actually happens. Everything inflates in price because suddenly more people have more money to throw around, and again "I want it and I want it now" leads to a vast majority of buyers to purchase whatever they please at any price. Those higher prices become the norm. And eventually, your dream of gil changing hands more freely grinds to a halt once more because players coming into the game starting at zero gil suddenly don't have the money to get in on the same marketboard games.

6. "But they can do the same thing and buy a premium item to sell." And in that line of thinking lies the problem. The inflation does get to a point where in order to get your foot in the door for even the basic leveling gear or starting on crafts to make your own gil, you have the following options: Grind even more than we do now to meet the same gil requirements to buy items, spend even more money at an in-demand (potentially overpriced) cash shop item and hope it sells, or resort to RMT.

Suddenly buying an item from a cash shop is no longer just "spending a few bucks" on something you want or even "spending a few bucks to get some extra, easy gil." It becomes necessary for newer players to even get their foot in the door unless they have help. And that is where a lot of the hate lies.

And let me tell you, it's people with your very same point of view that makes your system fall apart. Why use option #1 and spend hours gathering when it's not fun when you can just chuck money at the screen and get the same result? And since RMT now has all of that inflated gil and can in fact compete with prices, there's a high chance that a player can just go through them, have the gil to purchase the cash shop item they want, AND still have gil leftover to do as they please.

7. RMT isn't just botting. They're players just like you and me that know the market board and player economy front, back, and sideways. While a huge chunk of their gil is gotten through gathering bots, most of the time the true meat of their funding sources are from playing the market just like anyone else. This method doesn't hurt them in the least. In fact they watch what premium items are selling, what the players selling those items expect in gil as payment, and price everything else they sell on the market accordingly.

RMT doesn't go anywhere in the situation you're describing. In fact you're breeding even more incentive for people to RMT because there's pretty things blocked both by a paywall of real money and whatever prices previous buyers have set said wanted objects in game to.

The only way your system would work is if Mog Station itself had both a pay by cash or a pay by gil option, so that people could directly purchase the item through SE themselves. no middle man at all, not even us the players.

The reason you don't see RMT in the games you played as much as here is because those games do a much better job of stopping the ads from appearing. Either through chat filters, devs actively banning/deleting bots, or through add-ons. If you don't know where to go, it makes the "laziness" of those who don't want to earn gil defeat themselves because it's not worth the hassle to figure out where to go and who's safe to buy from.

You want gil to change hands more smoothly, which means people aren't buying items because there's nothing people want. So why are you campaigning for premium cash items instead of SE creating more quests or more prizes you could earn in Gold Saucer or something? A game should not be relying on its cash shop to make players move gil between themselves. The cash shop should be extras players can treat themselves with.

[Nominous]

It appears to be unethical to its subscribers.

I wouldn't speak for everyone.

I don't think it's unethical at all. FFXIV's first priority wasn't a Cash Shop, it was gaining the trust of their fans. It was releasing the game in the best shape they could, and making QoL changes as well as making sure there was no imbalance in the game. Compare that to other games which launch with a fully functional Cash Shop, but less than serviceable online/offline experiences. Or compare it to games that launch in suspiciously incomplete states, then charge extra for content that one could only assume was ripped from the full game.

Not to mention, I feel like there is such a thing as well done optional/additional payed content, and I believe XIV's Cash Shop falls under that category. That's personal opinion of course, but in a sea of competitors that are doing much more harm than good with theirs, XIV does it with subtlety. None of the items in Cash Shop have a huge impact in-game, and are ultimately relegated to vanity items. It is a great example of DLC done right. It's stuff that adds to the experience rather than completes it. It's purely optional, and there's nothing morally bankrupt about charging for it.

[XgungraveX]

1st its vanity only so i dont care 2nd my sub pays for this http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...patchnote_log/ every 3 months the game has be updated which is alot compare to other mmorgs.

[GenJoe]

4. Here's where your argument starts to falter: what are the majority of characters that do the DoL gathering classes? RMT bots. There's plenty of legit players (including myself) that use the DoL classes to get a starting capital to level their crafting classes. However there's a reason why RMT bots abuse mining: shards and crafting materials. You can make 120k-300k with anywhere between 2-4 hours of nonstop gathering as a level 1 miner if you know where to go. That's how the bot portion of RMT does it.

So yes, while players do see the benefit of more profits coming in from even gathering classes, so does the RMT bots. They all get as much of a gil increase as the rest of us do, and in less time. Their stocks of gil rises, which allows them to be far more flexible with their prices than you think.

5. There is no "restart" when this actually happens. Everything inflates in price because suddenly more people have more money to throw around, and again "I want it and I want it now" leads to a vast majority of buyers to purchase whatever they please at any price. Those higher prices become the norm. And eventually, your dream of gil changing hands more freely grinds to a halt once more because players coming into the game starting at zero gil suddenly don't have the money to get in on the same marketboard games.

Let me make myself clear here,
The whole idea of money changing hands, everyone starting from scratch, that's just an ideal, I don't think it'll ever happen no matter what change is made to the system (for one thing, people simply value in-game money differently and some are just not interested in it at all). I just would like even an illusion of its mere possibility. Because I hate sitting on my current stockpile of gil, it's making me lose interest and I hate even more how there's simply nothing to do with it.. I've given away and spent about 50m gil in the past month or so since I stopped actively trying to make gil, bought 2 houses for friends, made some donations to server events etc.. crashed a couple markets for shits and giggles.. But there's really nothing else I can do with it.

your point #4. I understand there will be inflation, BUT in most other MMOs, bots rely on green gold farming strategies. In FF14, green gil farming is very tedious and inefficient, also very limited compared to other games.. So I believe that the inflation will be in check by those measures. It'll be a near zero sum game, not exactly zero sum, but the amount of new gil introduced into the pool will be a smaller proportion every day and eventually may even settle at a stable number once enough gil sinks have been implemented. By that point, gil cannot inflate anymore.

As for your point #5. Well, like I said, I'd like to see that happening, but I don't see it being feasible, I'd just like to know that there's something I could do with my gil other than just giving it away..


Do you believe that gathered mat prices will inflate so much that its relative value will remain similar to what it is right now?
For example, right now, I think you can gather about 1.5m gil worth of shards a day if you go at it all day long. In $ that would be about $5. Let's just say that a botter makes $5 a day. (In reality, it's probably a bit more, but for simplicity's sake)

i.e. Do you think, if what I described was implemented, adjusting for inflation of gil and the drop in its exchange rate, a simple gathering bot would still make $5 a day? I don't think it will, gathering in general will become a less profitable venture in terms of relative wealth. I think it'll drop at least half, maybe even more.. Below the point of profitability = RMT company moves on to something easier.


P.S. Sound argument by the way, I agree with most of what you're saying.. I simply predict things to move slightly further on the spectrum and that would be enough for many RMTs to move on.

The only way your system would work is if Mog Station itself had both a pay by cash or a pay by gil option, so that people could directly purchase the item through SE themselves. no middle man at all, not even us the players.

I'd also be very interested in how that would play out.. I think that WOULD eliminate RMT almost completely. RMT simply will not be able to compete in the market against SE who can just print out items for zero cost.. Depending on how they would determine the gil <-> $ ratio, and if it'll be a constantly variable exchange rate, I would be behind the idea..



P.P.S. I think I'm hi-jacking the thread into an anti RMT thread and I apologize, but I think a well implemented cash shop could really combat RMT well. Not that anti-RMT measures would be the main purpose of a cash shop, of course not.. My opinion on cash shops is, I don't need it, I don't want it (the items), if others want it, then so be it.
Thus, if it can be used to solve another problem, albeit a work around, I'm all for it.