The Ethics of Optional Item Sales

[Izsha]

I feel like both of you are, perhaps, new to MMOs. And I define "new" as someone who hasn't been participating in MMO games since they began to gain popularity back in the 90's. Those of us that did game since that period were around when a subscription fee allowed players to access all content added to the game (without having to pay additional fees beyond the monthly sub).

For newer MMO gamers I can certainly understand how cash shops may seem like the norm now, but the fact is development studios used to be able to create games with similar levels of content (and smaller player bases) without turning to cash shops and DLC for additional funding. Early Everquest and even FFXI are good examples of this as far as MMOs go. Unfortunately for all of us, greed and pressure from management have changed this (and I speak from experience on this as someone from that industry).

Any developer will tell you that an MMO is "never done" and that new content will always be forthcoming. I can't recall any that have dared advertised the idea that your monthly subscription fee would only be used to keep the lights on, and to not expect any additional content in the game's future despite your continued financial support. That would be a ridiculous death sentence for any MMO project.

I if you've been playing mmos as long as you imply you'd realize your own error. There are tons of 'dead' mmos where you pay literally to keep the lights on. Ffxi just announced that the end of this year will be the last content uodate. Ever. You can keep playing but the mmo is in fact 'done'. Ffxi subscriptions will keep the lights on and probably weed out the occasional discovered bug. There are TONS of dead mmos that still have servers but zero content still being mmade.

And to all the 'subscription should give me evetything' people, how do you justify buying expansions? It's a 1 time fee for content that according to your own logic, should he included via subscription.

You can't get all uppity about buying a Xmas hat in cash shop, then turn around and drop 40 bucks for an expac. If instead they put heavensward story in cash shop for 20, raids for 20, you'd be having a conniption. But if it's in a pretty box with a dvd, buying content is suddenly perfectly fine. Stop the double standards.

[Blim]

I'd appreciate it if they could add vanity items like armour from older updates/content such as HA gear (but without any stats)...purely for glamour purposes only.
It's extremely hard to get any parties to do SCOB anymore. Pretty much dead content except T9 (which is filled with parties that cannot make it past golems)

[stoxastic]

The existence of the cash shop is grounded in economics. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_curve


Each player has different amounts of money they are willing to spend on FFXIV. Some players can only afford the base subscription fee of 12.99. Others can afford the most expensive monthly fee. Others are able to spend even more for additional retainers. The cash shop is no different from this.

Different players have different amounts of disposable income. It is wise for SE to provide premium services/items to those that can spend more money on this game. This allows SE to bring in more revenue so they can further invest it into the game (more employees, more servers, etc). In addition, as long as these premium services/items do not stomp upon the vast enjoyment of the game, then it will be well worth it. Vanity items for glamour and minions fall under this. If max level raid gear was added to the cash shop, it would be a terrible decision because that would stomp on the enjoyment of the game for a large number of players.

If the existence of these vanity items in the cash shop is such a detriment to your enjoyment of FFXIV, then I do feel sorry for you because you are in the minority. However, the extra revenue that SE brings into the cash shop means that they can invest it into future content for ALL players, even the ones that pay a bare minimum 12.99/month. In the end, the cash shop benefits all of us: Players with disposable income gets their cool Odin mount, and everyone else can reap of benefits of SE having more resources to continue great content on this game.

[Gyson]

I feel like both of you are, perhaps, new to MMOs. And I define "new" as someone who hasn't been participating in MMO games since they began to gain popularity back in the 90's. Those of us that did game since that period were around when a subscription fee allowed players to access all content added to the game (without having to pay additional fees beyond the monthly sub).

For newer MMO gamers I can certainly understand how cash shops may seem like the norm now, but the fact is development studios used to be able to create games with similar levels of content (and smaller player bases) without turning to cash shops and DLC for additional funding. Early Everquest and even FFXI are good examples of this as far as MMOs go. Unfortunately for all of us, greed and pressure from management have changed this (and I speak from experience on this as someone from that industry).

Any developer will tell you that an MMO is "never done" and that new content will always be forthcoming. I can't recall any that have dared advertised the idea that your monthly subscription fee would only be used to keep the lights on, and to not expect any additional content in the game's future despite your continued financial support. That would be a ridiculous death sentence for any MMO project.

For better or worse, evolution happens, and there will likely come a day when no one bats an eye at cash shops or DLC. We're not there yet, nor likely to be there for some time, and until then threads like this are perfectly understandable (although obviously bound to be controversial as different generations of gamers clash).

I if you've been playing mmos as long as you imply you'd realize your own error. There are tons of 'dead' mmos where you pay literally to keep the lights on. Ffxi just announced that the end of this year will be the last content uodate. Ever. You can keep playing but the mmo is in fact 'done'. Ffxi subscriptions will keep the lights on and probably weed out the occasional discovered bug. There are TONS of dead mmos that still have servers but zero content still being mmade.

And to all the 'subscription should give me evetything' people, how do you justify buying expansions? It's a 1 time fee for content that according to your own logic, should he included via subscription.

You can't get all uppity about buying a Xmas hat in cash shop, then turn around and drop 40 bucks for an expac. If instead they put heavensward story in cash shop for 20, raids for 20, you'd be having a conniption. But if it's in a pretty box with a dvd, buying content is suddenly perfectly fine. Stop the double standards.

No, the error is in that I wasn't more clear in that I was referring to MMOs under development (either pre-release, or post when they're still being actively supported). Obviously my statement wouldn't apply to games where the developers have announced their intentions to discontinue future development (I felt that went without saying, but apparently not since I now have to clarify that for you). I hope we can both agree that, unlike FFXI's future, FFXIV is not at that point (and as such I feel your point doesn't apply to this game).

Expansions (which often double the size of the original game) versus microtransactions are an odd comparison. Again, I hope we can both agree that the former provides far more content per dollar than the latter. Having said that, I think we're all aware that expansions often come under fire as well, and are susceptible to the same problem that plagues cash shop items and DLC: developers insist the development of this content is not pulling resources from the core game, but (in my experience) that is rarely true.

You're applying a double standard by painting me with a brush of your making, one that doesn't mirror reality. I purchase expansions as well as DLC and items from cash shops, and never claimed not to. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of the issues surrounding them. It would also be ridiculously for me to claim I didn't miss the days when gamers received the same amount of content (as they do now) without being nickel and dimed in the process. I'm sure others feel the same, where as yet others are unfamiliar with these games every operating under a different model than they do now. Thus, threads like this (and the differing reactions to them) don't surprise me. The individuals who are surprised by these threads, however, are what surprises me (in that "how can this lack of understanding still exist" sort of way).

[HakuroDK]

I don't think it matters if a game is F2P or P2P. If a cash shop has gamebreaking items in it, it is a bad cash shop. Otherwise, it's fine.

The only real botch that SE has had with this cash shop is making the Eternal Bond bracelets tradeable, then not enforcing that selling those bracelets is against the ToS. Other than that, the whole cash shop discussion has really died down since shortly after its inception because it's not gamebreaking enough for players to maintain the outrage they once had.

[Izsha]

You can't draw a line and say expansions are ok because it's a better 'bang for your buck'. The principle is the same. Devs create additional content using the money from subscription fees, then peddle that content to those same subscribers for an additional fee.

I shouldn't have to pay for content! Its IMMORAL! Rabble rabble rabble!

Wait it's a 2 for 1 deal!? It's fine gaiz! My moral qualms have been appeased by the increased value of my dollar!

Really? That's so flimsy. Just because you get an conveniently arbitrary better value doesn't change the rightness or wrongness of the practice.

[Madepossible]

People should be able to change their race and appearance without purchasing fantasia, I mean, it's overpriced and almost equals the monthly subscription fee.

[Rendecrow]

People should be able to change their race and appearance without purchasing fantasia, I mean, it's overpriced and almost equals the monthly subscription fee.

All the other MMOs out there charge for stuff like that. They would be losing out if they did it for free.

[Madepossible]

All the other MMOs out there charge for stuff like that. They would be losing out if they did it for free.

It was worth the try! XD

[Welsper59]

Not in the slightest, and it's unfortunate you took it that way. While ultimately I can't help how you choose to perceive my comments, I'm simply regurgitating information that developers have doled out to the public in the past.

The same goes for this fellow and his odd analogy:



I feel like both of you are, perhaps, new to MMOs. And I define "new" as someone who hasn't been participating in MMO games since they began to gain popularity back in the 90's. Those of us that did game since that period were around when a subscription fee allowed players to access all content added to the game (without having to pay additional fees beyond the monthly sub).

For newer MMO gamers I can certainly understand how cash shops may seem like the norm now, but the fact is development studios used to be able to create games with similar levels of content (and smaller player bases) without turning to cash shops and DLC for additional funding. Early Everquest and even FFXI are good examples of this as far as MMOs go. Unfortunately for all of us, greed and pressure from management have changed this (and I speak from experience on this as someone from that industry).

Any developer will tell you that an MMO is "never done" and that new content will always be forthcoming. I can't recall any that have dared advertised the idea that your monthly subscription fee would only be used to keep the lights on, and to not expect any additional content in the game's future despite your continued financial support. That would be a ridiculous death sentence for any MMO project.

For better or worse, evolution happens, and there will likely come a day when no one bats an eye at cash shops or DLC. We're not there yet, nor likely to be there for some time, and until then threads like this are perfectly understandable (although obviously bound to be controversial as different generations of gamers clash).

It is true that I wasn't big on MMOs during the 90s, but I was around since WoW and FFXI launch (also dabbled very briefly with EQ before that). The whole milking of money for half a solid game perspective didn't exist much at all until the late 2000s probably, and it really didn't have much to do with genre. You could say the same thing about console gaming (not just MMOs) back in the 90s honestly. I really wouldn't say MMOs gained popularity until WoW hit the scene though. Not so much because WoW was so revolutionary compared, but because of technological timing. Games like EQ is famous, but hardly as iconic to the growth in popularity as WoW (which is where the mainstream perspective began to take root). Broadband and the idea of a computer being a household expectation wasn't exactly common until around that time, afterall.

You might be misunderstanding your own explanation on some points. There's a huge difference between saying that your money pays for access to available content and saying that your money simply "keeps the lights on". Typically when you sub for something, you are getting reasonable access to what service you're paying for. Nothing more. There is no presented proof to say otherwise. It's a bit underhanded at times, but there are SO MANY VARIABLES at play when you deal with multi-million dollar companies, as I gave a brief idea to earlier. The amount of services we have to pay for now is far greater than it was 20 years ago, likewise the costs for said services has gone up exponentially compared to that time. That's just a couple of an almost infinite number of potential fiscal problems companies deal with. When you're dealing with money, someones personal righteous attitude or belief is never going to hold up to the powers that control the flow of resources available without some sort of financial benefit. This is how it has always been, since economics came to be.

When we talk about things referring to what one is entitled to from a business transaction, in other words legally bound, there's no "believing" or "should" involved here. Devs can say whatever they want when expressing their views (within certain context and limitations), but they are not bound to abiding by it. They can tell you they believe something should be this way, which is typically truthful, but stuff happens and you can't always produce desired results.

You're applying a double standard by painting me with a brush of your making, one that doesn't mirror reality. I purchase expansions as well as DLC and items from cash shops, and never claimed not to. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of the issues surrounding them. It would also be ridiculously for me to claim I didn't miss the days when gamers received the same amount of content (as they do now) without being nickel and dimed in the process. I'm sure others feel the same, where as yet others are unfamiliar with these games every operating under a different model than they do now. Thus, threads like this (and the differing reactions to them) don't surprise me. The individuals who are surprised by these threads, however, are what surprises me (in that "how can this lack of understanding still exist" sort of way).

You know, for someone who comes off as somewhat zen, you don't seem to acknowledge technical variables when it comes to how it used to be, and how it is now. It's very true that some companies will nickel and dime every single thing they can, but with the current state of things in FFXIV, people paint it as though they're trying to take away entire raids and the ability to even create a character (exaggeration obviously)... because of vanity... because of dyes... because of *insert petty item comparison*. Business practices have changed over time, and there's no doubt that this sort of thing would have happened in the 90s, if technology and the gaming market were up to par with what we have today. It just comes with the territory of any business, doesn't have to be game related, as it seems like you might have an understanding for.

Whether or not people understand how business works according to the times it is referred to, whether they stick to fairy tale beliefs of how things must be (creative freedoms, infinite resources, etc), and so on are not surprising to encounter. No matter how many times it happens. Not everyone will have the same experiences and we'll all have our own ways of understanding what we can. Business always evolves, but it's often not just because of one specific thing. And as I already said, if this same degree of advancement in other fields existed back then, things would have been similar to what it is now. Applying a personal belief upon others is wrong on all levels without understanding circumstance.