Healers forever gimped

[Ethos]

Shroud of Saints uses the same level scaling function as spell MP costs which appears to be a function that is not character attribute or even class dependent.

The 60 and 80 Potency tooltips for SoS are likely just representative of a percentage of the spell cost function where MP cost values of spells like Cure II and Protect can be seen as equal to 100. So 60 Potency = 60%, 80 Potency = 80% of these MP values at each level. Certain MP costs for spells such as Stone II (60) and Repose (80) can also be used to quickly view what SoS refresh values per tick are in game at different levels.
*Current MP values and MP costs should always be whole numbers rounded down which leads to non exact ratios for spell costs at certain levels.

Other abilities and their hidden refresh potency values:
Riot Blade (Instant)- 50 Potency (Fast Blade Combo)
Energy Drain (Instant)- 50 Potency, 100 Potency (Talent)
Mage's Ballad (Per tick)- 30 Potency, 60 Potency (Soul Voice)

[CallMeZeo]

What are you guys even arguing about at this point?

What she said.

[KisaiTenshi]

Shroud of Saints uses the same level scaling function as spell MP costs which appears to be a function that is not character attribute or even class dependent.

The 60 and 80 Potency tooltips for SoS are likely just representative of a percentage of the spell cost function where MP cost values of spells like Cure II and Protect can be seen as equal to 100. So 60 Potency = 60%, 80 Potency = 80% of these MP values at each level. Certain MP costs for spells such as Stone II (60) and Repose (80) can also be used to quickly view what SoS refresh values per tick are in game at different levels.
*Current MP values and MP costs should always be whole numbers rounded down which leads to non exact ratios for spell costs at certain levels.

Other abilities and their hidden refresh potency values:
Riot Blade (Instant)- 50 Potency (Fast Blade Combo)
Energy Drain (Instant)- 50 Potency, 100 Potency (Talent)
Mage's Ballad (Per tick)- 30 Potency, 60 Potency (Soul Voice)

I was able to replicate this, almost. What's interesting is that the numbers they got for SCH I managed to get for CNJ.

So before I overcompicate things, here's the Level, PIE and MP data:


Level 8-49 are from LevelSync on CNJ with no bonus-providing gear equipped (the level 1 staff and a level one body armor) There is no possible way to levelsync below 8, the 5 comes from an alternate character on an alternate server that I just kinda created over a year ago and then did nothing with, but since she's a Moonseeker, the PIE race stat is different, so I subtracted 2 points. The Character I used for this is a Sunseeker.

^ Also curious about this as I got a feeling Shroud is based around the raw PIE value of your level, which may partially explains why it scales with level in a weird way.

It ~is~, but the round-about way I got a formula for this is based off the MP, which doesn't eliminate the Race value which is what I figure is a rounding error at those levels. Basically the Formula is (POTENCY AS %)*(0.0825)*(UNGEARED MP)
In doing this, I discovered something else. You can have the same values for PIE, either through the bonus points or through gear and get different MP.

Here's data #2...


Now before someone says something, this is why it's interesting:


This is where that clue above from the previous forum post. The 1530 had to be dividable by the same 7.57, which happens to be the PIE with no race, gear, or bonus points.

So I came up with a formula that works for level 50, but clearly the multiplier changes by level, and isn't linear.
Where MULTIPLIER = 7.57 and Level = 50
(UNGEARED PIE*MULTIPLIER) + (UNGEARED PIE+BONUS PIE*Multiplier)
eg (202*7.57) + (222 * 7.57) = 3209.68 MP.
So if you sunk your bonus points into PIE you get
(202*7.57) + (252 * 7.57) =3436.78 MP.

The WHM soul stone changes the multiplier in a way I have not yet tested, and I haven't tested if the gear is changing the multiplier or just the soul stone.

I only did one test with this, which is when I observed it, but I had 242 PIE from Bonus points and had MP of 3361, but the gear item(s) that brought it to 242 PIE 3508, which I suspect is the WHM crystal changing the multiplier. As I wasn't testing specificly for this at the time, I was just poking random PIE-changing gear into the above formula to see if it was consistent. (Which it's not)

What she said.

SoS Scaling, PIE/MP scaling.

[Viviza]

SoS Scaling, PIE/MP scaling.

What is there about it to debate or discuss? The math and tables are nice, but what are you trying to show?

[Ghishlain]

@Kisa

At this point in time, you should probably just collate all your data and just begin a new thread entirely for discussion with respect to Shroud. As it stands, the earlier discussion would only detract from your current train of thought and for the most part, is interesting to gloss over on it's own separate discussion.

As it stands right now, your current data runs the risk of being marred by the earlier discussion in the thread, hence my suggestion.

[VanilleFang]

This whole thread confuses me. @_@ Doesn't SoS just heal a flat amount depending on your level? Isn't it not a percentage of any number? I am so lost lol

[Menae]

This whole thread confuses me. @_@ Doesn't SoS just heal a flat amount depending on your level?

Yes.

Isn't it not a percentage of any number?

No. I mean, every number is a percentage of every number. Snarky answers aside, though, it's based on something; apparently it's a percentage of a base mp cost every class shares that goes up with levels. That said, that base mp cost might itself be based off of something else, whether it's something elegant like a percentage of some class's base mp or just some arbitrary numbers Square picked I cannot say.

[Causality]

MMOs are designed around tradeoffs.

WHM has high potency heals. The tradeoff is limited support capacity. SCH has high support capacity, tradeoff is limited heal strength.

WHM has HoTs to cover for low mobility, while SCH has a fairy.

WHM has a weaker AoE HoT with no cool down, while SCH has a stronger one with a cool down.

SCH has a 50/50 split in enmity with fairy and WHM can cut enmity in half every 2 minutes.

These are all balanced and fair tradeoffs between the jobs. The only discrepancy is MP recovery. There is no justification nor fair trade to why SCH has a scaling MP tool with a 1min CD + 3 optional burst recovery options (if needed) while WHM has a fixed MP tool with a 2min cool down that only rewards a small amount of MP every 3 seconds.

You are also forgetting that WHM has Procs to mitigate their Mana Usage.

A lot of WHM fail to make use of their Cure II Procs as well as their Cure III Procs. You actually have a Hidden Free Esuna Proc as well as a White Mage. PRoperly timed Shroud of Saints along with that and a WHM typically has no issues with their Mana Pool or threat at all. Scholars have it all fine and Dandy yes, but are heavily Reliant on that little Fairy as a good Chunk of their healing as well as their only source of a HoT. They also rely on that fairy as a Threat dump and an EOS in Sic is a waste of party wide defensive cool downs, and that HoT. Never mind if the Fairy dies, the scholar either can try and carry on without it, or summon it at the cost of a Swiftcast, or stand there summoning it without putting out further heals.

[VanilleFang]

No. I mean, every number is a percentage of every number. Snarky answers aside, though, it's based on something; apparently it's a percentage of a base mp cost every class shares that goes up with levels. That said, that base mp cost might itself be based off of something else, whether it's something elegant like a percentage of some class's base mp or just some arbitrary numbers Square picked I cannot say.

Ah. Now I understand. Sorry, I just have issues with graphs and stuff at times. I see what you mean.

[Ghishlain]

No. I mean, every number is a percentage of every number. Snarky answers aside, though, it's based on something; apparently it's a percentage of a base mp cost every class shares that goes up with levels. That said, that base mp cost might itself be based off of something else, whether it's something elegant like a percentage of some class's base mp or just some arbitrary numbers Square picked I cannot say.

You probably extend on this in the sense that (Level * PIE modifier) = base PIE level = base MP of the player. Shroud is probably based on any one of those factors as that changes the "base" MP. Notice how shroud gets a small boost in potency from level 40 to 41 - it goes from getting a 4mp/tick / level to FLOOR(7.5)mp/tick / level when it makes the transition. Likewise, total max MP gained per level jumped from 40 to 41 by about double as well.

Note this also implies that racial bonuses are independent from this base MP value else every player would have a slightly different Shroud tick. Just a minor detail in the grand scheme of things, might be used to prove something else way down the line for a completely different role, lol.