Healers forever gimped

[Ghishlain]

I'd argue both classes have three additional resources to manage - GCDs, cooldowns (like Divine Seal, Rouse, etc.), and threat. I find that if I let somebody die as a WHM, it's often not because I'm OOM, but because I have two or more things I'd like to do at once, and I can't. You can spend cooldowns to save/gain GCDS by healing more or more often, at the cost of not having access to those cooldowns for, well, their cooldowns. Finally threat is a resource as well, albeit one that isn't commonly dealt with. If the tank only has enough hate for me to heal 1000 hp, I might want to delay my heal or use an ability like stoneskin which is less MP and time efficient, but won't get me savaged by the boss.

Yep, those are all resources to consider while healing. However, GCDs, CDs (short of Aetherflow / Shroud of Saints), and Threat mean little in the context of MP Efficiency - which was the point I was aiming for with my response.

How did this happen to a thread asking people to stop the whole healer vs healer deathmatch thing?

For me personally, I knew this was a joke thread to begin with, but since it went into a serious discussion about specific things, I'm putting in my two cents to the whole issue.

As I love theory crafting, I enjoy threads like these and hearing people's thoughts on the matter. No matter how good a development team is, there will always be imbalance between two class of the same role. If they are perfectly homogenized, well, that means there's no difference between the two (or more). Why I enjoy these threads is because it allows players to identify a classes strengths and weaknesses and pick one that suits their style. This also allows players to intelligently offer suggestions to how a class may be modified to correct the imbalance between two (or more) classes sharing the same role.

[YukariOro]

I don't think it's about fighting amongst each other, but more about how WHM is just a healer who has the tightest MP restriction in the game

I do WHM and SCH both, tho I prefer SCH. Because I'm pretty well geared, I moved all my points in WHM to Piety, on the advice of a friend, and honestly, have never looked back. His point was that you only shorten your cure potency by about 200hp (very minor difference in heal strength in my book) if you put all your points in Piety. So I decided to test his theory, and found he was right in practice. Even with all my points in Peity, I have no issues keeping people healed, and even fewer MP issues. A lot of WHMs seem stuck on Mind only for their stats, which limits their MP majorly. I can understand this if they're undergeared and want to boost their heals. But if you're overgeared for most content except perhaps expert roulette dungeons, which I am on my WHM, then all points in Piety works just fine.

[Menae]

Yep, those are all resources to consider while healing. However, GCDs, CDs (short of Aetherflow / Shroud of Saints), and Threat mean little in the context of MP Efficiency - which was the point I was aiming for with my response.

Fair enough.

[Cynfael]

I do WHM and SCH both, tho I prefer SCH. Because I'm pretty well geared, I moved all my points in WHM to Piety, on the advice of a friend, and honestly, have never looked back. His point was that you only shorten your cure potency by about 200hp (very minor difference in heal strength in my book) if you put all your points in Piety. So I decided to test his theory, and found he was right in practice. Even with all my points in Peity, I have no issues keeping people healed, and even fewer MP issues. A lot of WHMs seem stuck on Mind only for their stats, which limits their MP majorly. I can understand this if they're undergeared and want to boost their heals. But if you're overgeared for most content except perhaps expert roulette dungeons, which I am on my WHM, then all points in Piety works just fine.

The problem with blowing stat points on PIE is that healers have a wide selection of PIE-loaded gear, and you only need so much MP. The loss of 30 MND won't disable a good WHM, but +30 PIE on top of what's granted by gear also won't really benefit one since exceeding 5k with gear alone is easy. I'd take the bit of extra healing and DPS power over the MP bloat.

[YukariOro]

The problem with blowing stat points on PIE is that healers have a wide selection of PIE-loaded gear, and you only need so much MP.

I do understand what you're saying, and had all my points in MND prior to the discussion with my friend, who went into all the mathematics of the heal strength and all. I decided to actually test his theory in dungeon runs and put all my points in PIE. In actual practice, I've found zero to refute my friend's insistence that PIE is worth investing in on WHM and have had zero trouble with healing on WHM. And if you only have 200hp that needs healing, you're going to be getting a regen from me anyhow.

Also, if a WHM isn't good at their job, they probably either need to study up or change to another class, regardless of where their points are placed.

I must say tho, I would never recommend that someone leveling WHM to 50, put all their points in PIE, definitely not. Mind definitely is preferred when leveling WHM.

[Hysterior]

the class you play does not matter as long as you are a lalafell

[Cynfael]

snip.

The choice is of course yours, but I'd look at it this way:

Marginal benefit of max MND (for DPS as well as heals) versus negligible benefit of excessive MP. A certain margin for safety is desirable, just as with tanks and VIT, but unspent MP is useless MP. This is why you don't see a huge PIE meta.

[YukariOro]

The choice is of course yours, but I'd look at it this way:

Marginal benefit of max MND (for DPS as well as heals) versus negligible benefit of excessive MP. A certain margin for safety is desirable, just as with tanks and VIT, but unspent MP is useless MP. This is why you don't see a huge PIE meta.

The PIE investment makes playing WHM easier and more pleasant for me, doesn't impact my ability to heal, so for me it works. I can see where others may not prefer doing the same, however, given that it causes no issues for me or for those I heal, I see no reason not to invest in PIE on WHM. I will say this tho, when I had all my points in MND, and Shroud was on cooldown, and for whatever reason I ran low on MP, and wasn't able to heal unless I popped a pot or ether, caused way more problems than I run into having points currently in PIE. At least with PIE I can toss out yet another Cure 1 because I haven't run out of MP.

I guess, my point is, the cure loss, is so negligible it's barely noticeable. I certainly don't notice it and no one I heal has ever complained or noticed a significant difference either. So, since I've tested it and found it works and helps to put points in PIE. You haven't tested it but don't think it works. Again, I've actually tested the concept in dungeon runs and WoD, and turn 5 recently, and seen that it works, so of course I'm going to believe it works to put points in PIE over what you and others, who have not tested the theory out as I have, are saying.

Someone telling me that what I have seen and experienced and practiced doesn't work, when I've seen it does in fact work, well I'm just not going to believe them. Simple as that.

[Menae]

Right, I'll just toss this term in again: Popular meta.

Everything in that post is based on popular meta. It wasn't explicitly mentioned, but it does not extend to only gear and preferences. White Mages gear up piety to perform because of how the player base has adopted the healing tandem meta - Which is where the 5k MP comes from and not from 4 or 24 player content. This meta would involve that the White Mage takes the greater chunk of healing while the scholar off-DPSes and mainly aids to mitigate tank-killing moves. This is the general outline, exact execution and/or synergy between each healer may vary with each pair. The roles are distributed like this because White Mages generally spend less MP for healing purposes and the Scholar spend less MP for damage purposes. This is a well established meta, in my opinion.

So what if this meta never existed and both healers simply healed and neither did damage? This would result to a really high healing output that overshadows the healing requirement for an encounter. If some of the healing from the White Mage would be shifted towards the Scholar, they'd have less MP expenses and thus require less MP to use. If this was the case, White Mages would have no need to stack up on piety. But this kind of healing game is far from efficient. Not wrong, simply not as efficient as it can be. Depending on the pair, the White mage may need 5k MP to perform without Ballad. While another White Mage may need 5,7k MP to do the same. It depends on the amount of healing output the scholar gives up on.

Additionally, it's not like Scholars don't need piety at all. They're getting it on the side while stacking crit on the gear on multiple pieces. A scholar that's completely deprived of Piety simply couldn't function as it does now. They could if it was a matter of simply filling HP bars and nothing less together with the healer. But this isn't the case. So I'll just drop this again as that's what the post about MP numbers was about: Based on popular meta.

I feel like this is an episode of the Brady Bunch. Meta, meta, meta!

It boils down to this: Past a certain easy to reach breakpoint (Shroud is better at very low gear levels), if a WHM needs x mp to perform their job in an encounter, and a SCH needs x mp to perform their job in an encounter, then the SCH needs less Piety to get to x. What you need that x mp for, whether it's healing, dpsing, rezzing, spamming stoneskin on people who already have it, whatever, doesn't matter. What the meta is or was or will be doesn't matter. This is pure numbers.

And you know what? That's fine, if the WHM has advantages to make up for their MP disadvantage, whether it's base potency or other stat scaling. But the way you typed

Right, I'll just leave this here concerning "MP issues":

implies that WHM don't have an MP disadvantage at high gear levels over long fights. And they do.

[YukariOro]

implies that WHM don't have an MP disadvantage at high gear levels. And they do.

This is very much true. I have far less issues on SCH with MP, and find Aetherflow much easier to manage, because of its shorter cooldown, than Shroud on WHM. I try to properly time when I pop Shroud, early in a fight, so that I don't go "oomph" but it can still happen. And if a WHM is still unfamiliar with when to pop Shroud, or for some reason only holds it for those cases where they accidentally grab enmity, well, that makes it even harder. But knowing when to pop Shroud does take some practice I think and research, if you're new to using it.