Is it time for SE to give PLDs a good bump in terms of DPS?

[SwordCoheir]

Frankly, they just need to remove some of the debilitation factors that PLD has and other jobs don't. Removing both the MP cost and the GCD on Shield/Sword Oath for quick interchangeability is a good start, even if they give it a cooldown like Clerics and Defiance. Second pull off the GCD on Shield Swipe (not bash) in exchange for a 15-30 second cooldown and I think we'll be in business.

Err... One more thing, make it to where they WON'T break combos anymore.

[SpookyGhost]

Eh, sort of. A war also loses a fair amount of DPS if he has to drop down to full mitigation/threat mode using SP and BB. I think the numbers end up a lot closer if you compare PLD Shield Oath vs. WAR in Defiance doing only SP > BB (drop fracture for faster wrath)..

Why do people keep posting this like it's a rotation?

SE -> SP

or

SE -> BB

never

SP -> BB

If you are using the SE -> SP rotation you occasionally have to BB. When you do BB, you do it after you apply SE and let SP drop until you can reapply it.

Also, the only fights in the entire game where you want to rotate Path and Eye as MT in Defiance are T13 and Savage SCoB. Everywhere else, you either rotate Eye -> BB or you drop Defiance after you gain enough aggro and SE -> SP. There's literally no fight in the entire game where SP -> BB is a good idea. None.

[SirTaint]

Eh, sort of. A war also loses a fair amount of DPS if he has to drop down to full mitigation/threat mode using SP and BB. I think the numbers end up a lot closer if you compare PLD Shield Oath vs. WAR in Defiance doing only SP > BB (drop fracture for faster wrath).

WAR is just more flexible in that you can make trade offs for DPS, threat and mitigation to make the transition more gradual instead of just lopping off all your DPS potential when you go from Sword Oath > Shield Oath.

You lost me at SP > BB

And WAR still has maim, unchained, zerk, inner beast, and a buffed fracture. Even in T13 you don't need SP up 100%, just key moments where it helps and again isn't necessary.

[Giantbane]

Why do people keep posting this like it's a rotation?

SE -> SP

or

SE -> BB

never

SP -> BB

If you are using the SE -> SP rotation you occasionally have to BB. When you do BB, you do it after you apply SE and let SP drop until you can reapply it.

Also, the only fights in the entire game where you want to rotate Path and Eye as MT in Defiance are T13 and Savage SCoB. Everywhere else, you either rotate Eye -> BB or you drop Defiance after you gain enough aggro and SE -> SP. There's literally no fight in the entire game where SP -> BB is a good idea. None.

If you're not using STR or melded accessories, it's harder to build enough of a threat lead to SE>SP the whole fight. If you're just doing SE> BB then you're taking more damage than the PLD. If you're doing SE > SP > BB, then you're still making trade offs because you don't have 100% up time on either buff. The point was that the WAR is more flexible in that you CAN do this (and as you pointed out, you can do this most of the time).

But as soon as you bring dropping Defiance into the picture, the WAR just loses. A PLD in sword oath is just a flat better tank than a WAR without defiance. Equal (or nearly equal depending on party makeup) DPS and better mitigation.

And WAR still has maim, unchained, zerk, inner beast, and a buffed fracture. Even in T13 you don't need SP up 100%, just key moments where it helps and again isn't necessary.

And PLD has the underrated CoS & Spirits. Whenever we did the last round of PLD vs. WAR dps threads around here, the result was that if you take SE & Frac out of the picture (necessary in order to match the PLDs mitigation and threat generation) then the DPS between the two classes while tanking gets a lot closer. The WAR is just good in that he can get away with being more flexible (and almost always can).

I just think the two classes are pretty balanced because of this and the PLD does not need a DPS boost while tanking. Only thing I think the PLD really should have is taking the oaths off the GCD and have it so using an oath doesn't interrupt a combo. This would allow the PLD to be more fluid in the way that a WAR can.

[SpookyGhost]

You wouldn't do SE > SP > BB > repeat. You would do SE > SP > SE > BB > repeat. SP would drop but, consider the following: do you need SP for auto attack hits? No, probably not.

PLD in SwO is the highest damage MT. I'm not going to argue this because it's the truth and I've never said otherwise. All I was pointing out is that SP -> BB is never, ever the answer. If you don't have STR or melded accessories, you should get them. If you're rocking full VIT outside of T13 (and even then, you don't need to be at all) then that is a whole different problem from just your rotation. Fix your accessory problem and start using rotations that aren't the most counter productive ones in the entire game.

Whenever we did the last round of PLD vs. WAR dps threads around here, the result was that if you take SE & Frac out of the picture (necessary in order to match the PLDs mitigation and threat generation) then the DPS between the two classes while tanking gets a lot closer.

I imagine it's lost now, but do you have a link to this? Because this is the most next level stupid thing I've seen posted on these forums, and that's saying something.

[Felorr]

...do SE > SP > SE > BB > repeat. SP would drop...

Correct, SP is a tool in the Warrior tanking toolkit. 100% uptime of SP is rather reckless at this stage of progression. That being said, if your raid group is around i120, and still learning mechanics, I might only do SE > SP, and start dropping SP whenever there isn't going to be massive damage within 8 seconds of starting a combo. Fully committed groups do not need the SP crutch 100%

[Giantbane]

I imagine it's lost now, but do you have a link to this? Because this is the most next level stupid thing I've seen posted on these forums, and that's saying something.

Yea, I think this was last fall sometime. Lots of pages and I don't want to go digging it up.

Anyhow, I can napkin math it out real quick:

The halone combo does an average of ~203 potency per GCD ( (150+200+260) / 3 )
CoS & Spirits add 25 potency each per GCD ( both are 10 DPS (250/25 & 300/30), GCD is ~2.5 sec), so that's ~253 potency per GCD
FoF is just a flat 10% boost (30% buff available 30s every 90s) so 253 * 1.1 = ~278 potency per GCD
Finally shield oath applies a 20% penalty so ~222 potency per GCD

SP > BB (aside from the merits of actually using this combo) is also an average of ~203 potency per GCD ( (150+190+250+150+200+280) / 6 )
Brutal swing adds 12.5 per GCD ( 5 DPS (100/20) ) so 215.5 per GCD
Unchained is a 5.5% boost (+33% damage (inverse of removing the 25% penalty) for 20sec every 120sec) so ~227 per GCD
It takes about ~7.5 ish GCD to build 5 wrath, so every ~8.5 GCD Inner Beast can get used. Since it ignores Defiance, it effectively is a 400 damage strike compared to everything else. This gives you an extra ~200 damage over the base combo, which gives you about ~23.5 damage per GCD for 250.5 damage per GCD.
Maim adds 20% so 300.6 per GCD
Inner Release is very weak. It's only a 5% DPS buff (slightly less actually) for 15s out of 60s for a 1.25% boost. ~304 per GCD.
Berserk is weird because it's attack power, but i've seen it ball parked at a 40% boost. If you ignore pacification that's a ~8.8% boost (40% for 20s every 90s) so ~331 per GCD.
With pacification you're losing 5s of DPS which means 1-2 lost GCDs depending on your timing. Lets say 1.5 GCDs losing your main combo averaging 243 per GCD (203 base avg + maim) for a loss of around for and 243With good timing you're only dropping one GCD which is about 243 with maim and the base combo. Losing 364.5 every 90s for an average loss of ~10 potency per GCD for 321 per GCD.
Finally Defiance is a 25% penalty for ~241

PLD 222 vs. WAR 241

I vaguely remember it closer, so maybe I missed something, but either way, you're looking at the WAR doing 9% more damage in this situation. Noticeable, of course, but not blowing them out of the water.

[Hieral]

PLDs shield give them an edge while MTing. A shield is like a perma -10% damage buff. They can also use shield bash while MTing for higher DPS and less TP usage. The tricky part comes when the WAR uses Unchained to buff their own DPS and pulls a ton of hate.

This all assumes sword oath tanking with the same gear. If the defensive stance is needed WAR blows PLD out in the DPS department.

I seriously hope you're just trolling with your post. Any Paladin who uses Shield Bash for "higher DPS and less TP usage" is an idiot. Not only is the potency of Shield Bash only 110 but it has the highest TP cost possible at 150. If you're using Shield Bash for anything other than stunning, please go play a fail DPS. <. <

That said, if you're worried about TP and still getting some damage out while conserving some TP, you might get an Aegis Shield Zeta and spam some Shield Swipe instead!

[SpookyGhost]

He meant Shield Swipe. Common mistake.

[Brightsayge]

instead of increasing pld dps why don't they just lower war dps...