Our passive characters and why the 2.55 story fails (BIG SPOILERS) (rant warning)

[Aeyis]

There is a significant difference between killing monsters, Garleans, Primals, Beastmen and corrupt people out in the wild and killing groups of guards in town who to the general populace are just doing their jobs.

Yes. That difference is that Beastmen typically fight to defend their own lands, Garleans are simply people with a different point of view on things. Primals are those that answered a desperate call for help (someone would define that an aspect of a hero).

These are different from the Brass Blades and Crystal Braves. Because the others really just fight to defend their way of living, yet we kill them all mercilessly and think nothing of it.


But when we are to kill Corrupt Brass Blades and corrupt Crystal Braves (for all purposes criminals without remorse), it suddenly puts a bad light on us?
In case you havent noticed, all of them are not doing their job.

You have peculiar values.

I'm honestly still baffled as to why it is so difficult for the many people in this thread to understand the ramifications of their actions had they fought back or taken out some of the Monetarists themselves. Anyone could figure out that this was a losing battle from the start

So because its a losing battle you decide to make the worst choice because it doesnt matter anyway? Ramifications? BS. As others have explained had Lolirito had the WoL and the rest of the scions confined you would have only given him better means to control the situation.


However it was not a losing battle. You simply took the actions that made it one.

Without Moenbryda's research, we wouldn't have been able to kill that Ascian.

Thus, we can conclude that the WoL can be compared to Minfilia in terms of powers, but in terms of strength - we're probably just stronger than a lot of people.

I think you might have missed the part where he died and became incorporeal. This happens right after the WoL losses Blessing of Light, ironically.
Which means the WoL had considerable combat prowess even without it.

*sighs* you really believe our character alone can face a whole army? seriously?

even in the dragon and primal fight we was never alone! the scion by themself are not as strong as us. indeed they have some flashy movement... but nothing much. other point, our goal is the peace and protection of eorzea.... going around killing eorzean in uldah... is maybe not the best move. without forget, we don't know if all the soldier are part of the plot, some npc talk seems to say the inverse. since they wasn't able to arrest us, they are in a tight spot.... they can't openly arrest us and say: "they have killed Nanamo a few day ago".

seriously the situation as it stand have become a total mess even for the traitor. i'm sure if they had them way we will have been executed swiftly after everybody was arrested. but now that we did flee and alive, they can't really act without create a situation extreme.

**sigh** (<- that is me making an overly exaggerated sound as well)
Do you even know a thing or two about armies and combat, seriously?
You are aware you are on top of a promenade inside of a large city right? You can't just walk an army into a city and have it fight effectively.
It would turn into a pitched battle. Thats because there isnt a lot of space to move an army, let alone have it fight.


In pitched battles the side with the most endurance and the best individual units tends to win.
And hey, would you know that their 'units' happend to be level 35 brass blades and your 'units', highly elite combaters.
As far as endurance goes well, they had a means to escape. Which they used. So endurance would not be an issue.

Actually lorewise you were alone when fighting the primals. (most of them, you had help with leviathan) There were others fighting elsewhere to give you a hand, but you still faced the primals themselves alone.

going around killing eorzean in uldah

According to my achievements I've already killed a few thousand. I don't think a dozen or two-three of corrupt guards serving the one that killed the peoples beloved leader, would really have much of a negative impact.

seriously the situation as it stand have become a total mess even for the traitor. i'm sure if they had them way we will have been executed swiftly after everybody was arrested. but now that we did flee and alive, they can't really act without create a situation extreme.

They just killed the original leader of Ul'dah, seized full control over the city and killed or imprisoned nearly all of the scions.
You dont consider that an extreme situation?

[Noxifer]

Yes. That difference is that Beastmen typically fight to defend their own lands, Garleans are simply people with a different point of view on things. Primals are those that answered a desperate call for help (someone would define that an aspect of a hero).

These are different from the Brass Blades and Crystal Braves. Because the others really just fight to defend their way of living, yet we kill them all mercilessly and think nothing of it.

But when we are to kill Corrupt Brass Blades and corrupt Crystal Braves (for all purposes criminals without remorse), it suddenly puts a bad light on us?
In case you havent noticed, all of them are not doing their job.

You have peculiar values.

So... If we translate the situation to our-world terms... We have a soldier. A war hero. Who's killed multiple enemy combatants (imperial soldiers, bandits, beastmen, etc; humanoid/sentient targets), who happens to enjoy hunting as a pasttime (animals, beasts, dragons etc; non-humanoid/sentient targets). Say he comes back, and during some welcome-home party gets accused of murder (with somewhat flimsy, yet present 'proof' of your supposed guilt). I think that in this situation, most people would agree that shooting the most likely corrupt or at least non-questioning police officers who attempt to arrest you would not be the smartest thing to do, even if you had a suspicion the judge/jury might easily be bought to get a conviction against you. Biding your time until their guard was down and then escaping in order to find proof of your innocence, however?

Yeah, I think the general populace would view the killing of a few Ul'dahn soldiers as a far worse thing than killing hundreds, even thousands, of dangerous enemies and animals. Because that's what beastment and imperial soldiers are to most of the people. Even if the brass blades in question were corrupt, there'd still be that niggling voice going 'but what if they weren't?' in the back of the citizens' heads.
It's not really a question of 'would your character be capable of killing them' or 'would your character see it as worse or equal to killing all those others' or even 'would you as a player see it as worse than killing all those others'. It's 'would Ul'dah's citizens see it as a worse crime'.

True, escaping also provides the accusers with some fuel. "Why would they have escaped if they weren't guilty?"
Also true, a lot of said brass blades and crystal braves were killed during the escape, albeit not by you. I still think there'd be a distinction, because those happened out of sight, with only soldiers present. But escaping from the sultana's chambers by either killing only the soldiers and leaving the two civilians as witnesses or killing the civilians as well.... In the first case, you have two civilians who can attest to "s/he killed them in cold blood, s/he did! right before my very eyes! D: I near fainted from shock! the horror!" -- which makes it a lot more real to the person listening to it. In the second case, you add the whole 'killing of innocents' to the list of crimes. Even if those two civilians were far from innocent, to most people civilians are supposed to not run the risk of being killed, whereas soldiers 'willingly' face that risk every day.

And I just realized that I'm rambling XD So I'll stop here.

[Aeyis]

And I just realized that I'm rambling XD So I'll stop here.

Rambling is not a bad thing.
However I disagree with your arguments. These are the monetarists and corrupt blades we are talking about. The common people of Ul'dah loves neither.
On top of that, you would do it to avenge their beloved ruler.

If anything they would idolize the WoL even more after that.


Comparing scenarios in games with real life rarely works. That's because in real life we have this mess of complex rules and regulations and social interaction limiting our actions by a great deal.

[Noxifer]

However I disagree with your arguments.

Which you're perfectly free to do ^_^

These are the monetarists and corrupt blades we are talking about. The common people of Ul'dah loves neither.

And I'm sure that IRL there are cities where the common people aren't too fond of the police either :p I'd still say it's different from killing foreign enemies. But that's me ^^

On top of that, you would do it to avenge their beloved ruler.
If anything they would idolize the WoL even more after that.

It's possible. On the other hand, it's rarely the common people who make decisions (except by threatening riot and table-flipping :p ). And while it's the one-percenters who rule the monetarist section, there have to be a group of well-to-do and moderately wealthy citizens who actually have a shot at influencing things. And I'm not quite as certain those are as against the monetarists and brass blades as the common people.

Comparing scenarios in games with real life rarely works. That's because in real life we have this mess of complex rules and regulations and social interaction limiting our actions by a great deal.

I don't quite agree with that, though. While there's certainly a fair amount of hand-waving done by game creators, I'd like to think that there's a mess of complex rules and regulations limiting the characters (PCs and NPCs alike) in the game world. Such as the Seedseer and Admiral leaving at the prompting of their aides. While they'd like to stay and help their friend, politics won't allow them to. Not without severe consequences. So they withdraw. While politics tend to annoy me because I'm generally an impatient person, I have no issues with seeing the logic of that particular action.

That said, I agree with what many others have said, that it would have been good if there had been choices. Even if the choice to struggle and/or try to escape had in the end resulted in the same 'captured and thrown to the floor in the banquet hall' scene, even if the Scions had forced you to go on without them despite your arguments, it would have provided a little bit more of that individuality that so many players need. So on the whole I agree that the story ending could have been a lot better, but at the same time I can understand the (forced) events in the cutscenes. =)

[ElHeggunte]

snip

How you got yourself out of the situation does not matter. They're already trying to frame you killing the Sultana, I'm pretty sure the Syndicate would have no trouble tacking on more lies about you if they thought it would further their agenda. You could kill one guard and they'd blame you for the deaths of 100. You could give up peacefully and they could still blame you for the deaths of 1000 guards. The only people who would know otherwise are either one of the accused or one of the ones doing the accusing. Being cooperative in this situation does you no good.

Giving yourself up also assumes you would receive a fair trial or that they even intended to keep you alive long enough to put you on trial in the first place, both of which are highly unlikely given all of the other events leading up to the coup.

[Nestama]

Yeah, I think the general populace would view the killing of a few Ul'dahn soldiers as a far worse thing than killing hundreds, even thousands, of dangerous enemies and animals.

It's not really a question of 'would your character be capable of killing them' or 'would your character see it as worse or equal to killing all those others' or even 'would you as a player see it as worse than killing all those others'. It's 'would Ul'dah's citizens see it as a worse crime'.

And then we have the Scions do exactly what we did not. Fought back and possibly killed or severely injured a few Ul'dahn soldiers. We didn't do anything, sure, but it's well known to most that we hang out with the Scions, therefore can be as guilty (made worse due to "Chinese whispers." One person says one thing and the person they whisper it to says something similar, but a little different and eventually blown out of proportion).