White mage remain gimp because the can go scholar on real content?

[Yare]

Comparing WHM and SCH spells and skills one by one defeats the purpose of having these two classes being built/designed differently. Trying to play WHM like SCH definitely would limit WHM's potentials. Someone already said in another thread that it's like comparing apple with orange.

Dear Sir Vlady, no one is assassinating anyone's character. We are just stating the fact that WHM's potential and importance are pronounced in advanced endgame, which some of us considered to be the "Real content". Unfortunately, you are not able to appreciate the value of WHM due to your experience. Has the title of this thread worded differently, less emphasis on your exp would be mentioned. We anticipated someone w/ extensive exp in advanced endgame to enlighten us WHM how WHM is gimped.

Why? You expect productive exchanges and discussions in this thread with a title like "White mage remain gimp because the can go scholar on real content?"?

[Galdous]

Awesome, let's go from senseless and factually incorrect WHM-bashing to dropping the "lulz SCH easy mode" -card. Great contribution, exactly what this classic of a thread needed.

Minus medica the white mage brings very little to the table when stoneskin and magic resistance on protection pales in comparison to what the scholar brings. I restate the only reason white mage is brought in at all is because scholar shields do not stack. If scholars were made to e able to stack with each other white mages would never be needed. The biggest example is mega and giga flare which can be dealt with by scholars so therefore the need of a white mage is purely based on allowing larger mistakes then anything else.

[JubjubTubs]

Jubs doesn't understand this thread. What 'Real' content? People can be overgeared for every thing now. New, hard content = gotta go whm/sch combo. This has already been explained. If people don't get it... oh well, that's their personal problem and not a gaming one.

What Jubs believes is this is either a troll thread, or thinly veiled attempt to get whm buffed more with expansion changes than it might need. Jubs is a Nirvana White Mage... hate playing sch, but definitely always prefer second healer be a sch. Don't feel like any thing is wrong with WHM itself, but the playerbase instead. Like the DRG Stigma... WHM seems to attract more bad players than SCH, altho SCH on easy content (which is almost all content now depending on gear), masks bad players better. <-- could be what some people see.

[Ghishlain]

Once more why not debate the issues

You haven't really brought any "hard evidence" to the table that you claim to bring, so your attempts to brush aside the arguments can easily be turned back into your direction. Let's go over your "arguments":

Spoiler because it's a massive wall of text.

Alot of people are stating at how white mages are fine and bring the raw healing to the table in progression but is that really the issue? White mages are weaker on everything when compared to scholars and the only real draw back is stacking issues from other scholars with shields. I trully feel that the white mage needs a rework from its 1.0 days to make them relevant in 2.0 and beyond now.

"Weaker" in what respects? You say nothing about WHY WHM is weaker aside from "they are weaker when they are compared to"

Two people who I know who supposedly main white mages who have beaten all turns of Bahamut coils play scholars for 90% of the content that they farm now. The fact that scholar and white mages can can share almost all the healing gear in the game lets white mages get away from badly needing an overhaul because you can just go scholar to be a crutch.

Two people sure encompasses the vast majority of healers who play the healing role. I think we've seen more than "two people" this thread indicate that they believe the classes are well balanced.

But yet there is truth to what I say. You misconstrue bashing with wanting to see them buffed. If anything I am bashing scholars for being too powerful. There is really no such thing as someone who main's a white mage. You play white mage then go scholar for the other 90% of the game. My only issue is gear should not be shared between the two jobs. Then we would see fixes for the job.

What "truth" do you speak of? Still no hard evidence has hit the table. While I agree that the SCH toolkit is better than the WHM toolkit, it's not "too powerful" unless you can prove WHY it's too powerful.

BTW, I main WHM. I just happen to play SCH because the other healer in my group only has WHM leveled. I should clarify this point - I don't MAIN White Mage, I MAIN the healer role and pick the job I feel is more suited for the circumstances.

Also, what you're suggesting for gear separation would only irritate the general player base even more as there is now "MORE GEAR RNG" for Coil/CT/dungeon drops.

op healer in 4 man teams? Scholar? Check.

Holy says hi in any trash 4-man content. And it's already been noted that you know nothing about managing MP effectively on WHM if you're running into MP issues on trash 4-man content. From my own anecdotal experience:

Snowcloak SR with WHM? No problem slamming that Holy key
SV HM with WHM? No problem slamming that Holy key
Brayflox HM with WHM at it's prime? No problem slamming that Holy key.
Halatali HM with WHM and i110 cap? No problem slamming that Holy key (I actually have problems with SCH here if tank decides to jump off the ledge due to Fairy pathing around the normal route and despawning)
Keeper of the Lake with WHM? Keep slamming that Holy key.
AK HM with WHM? Yep, keep slamming.
WP HM with WHM? Yep, no issues.

Final point - doesn't matter which healer you use if you over gear the content like mad. Both gets the job done, just differently. Equal points to both.

Top utility out of healers? Scholar? Check.

Virus? Let's go through all the tank busters in FCoB

Critical Rip - Physical (pretty certain)
Secondary Head - Physical
Revelation - SOMEHOW Physical (not sure how MASSIVE FLAMING BURST is physical)
Flatten - Physical
Ank Morn - Magical (I'd imagine so, haven't gotten to this phase yet)

So, for most of the tank busters, WHM Virus is just as good as SCH Virus.

Eye for and Eye is clearly in SCHs favour just because of the one minute less cooldown

Fey Covenant - 20% Boost for 20 seconds (or about an average 3.333% boost over the 2 min CD duration) or +15% for the entire duration of the fight from WHM? Obvious answer is to use both - BTW, Heat Lighting, Cyclonic Burst, Wild Charge, Seeds on T11, Flames of Rebirth, Phoenix Charges, and Megaflare all say hi - good luck mitigating all that on a CD that has a 2min cooldown. I think Proshell wins this point.

Fey Illumination gives more benefit to your WHM than it gives to your SCH because they can extend the effect of it via Regen/Medica II on the last tick of the buff. You can only Whispering Dawn once in that time frame, and if you're spamming Succor or Adlo with the boost, you're probably just wasting your own MP. Also stacks with Divine Seal with the WHM for super powerful heals *Coughs*

On an individual basis, 20% for 20 seconds for SCH and Fairy every two minutes (average increase of 3.33% / 2 min ) versus 30% for 15 seconds for WHM every minute (average increase of 7.5% / 2 min - add to the fact you can basically get an additional 21 seconds on this with Regen)

WHM wins

Silent Dusk - As useful as the Stun component of Holy is in FCoB (never).

Fey Glow - Your BLM will love you forever and ever.

Fey Light - Can be a benefit for your physical DPS, can also cause them to run out of TP faster. Depends on your composition and raid comfort level - situational at best.

Analysis - SCH wins just because SCH has just that many different tools to use, even if some of them aren't useful. Overall, not as big as a divide as you claim it to be.

Best mitigation abilities which infinitely scale better then pure healing? Scholar? Check.

Of course SCH will win, they're advertised as THE MITIGATION healer. Gigaflare coming down? Virus + Sacred Soil + Succor + Fey Covenant.

On a more general basis

Stoneskin versus Adlo
The PLD/WAR I run with have 8.9K/10.9K HP respectively (both are using hybrid sets). That means WHM Stoneskin gives them 1,602 eHP / 1,962 eHP. My Adlos do about 1.2K and I have around 25% crit which gives them on average 1,800 eHP / 2,250 eHP. Pretty comparable I must say. Advantage SCH.

Why does Mitigation scale better than actual healing though? Answer me that. If you're doing T10 solo SCH and people are constantly getting hit with Heat Lightning, Cyclonic Burst, Wild Charge in P5, do you think 800 HP Succors are gonna bring people back up fast enough? Nope. And no, you won't have Roused + Fey Illumination + Whispering Dawn for all of that oncoming damage. Raw heals have their place as much as mitigation does.

The goto healer job for everything but a few fights requiring pure strong heals? Scholar? Check.

That pretty much describes every fight that isn't FCoB.

I'll just go back to saying "Holy" at this point. WoD can be done with six WHMs and it can be done with six SCHs with both extremes being able to DPS.

Despite what people's opinion the fact of the matter is people will play the majority of the time the job which is the strongest. That is the most logical path that all gamers take which is the path that gives the most power for least resistance. Scholars have an auto mode pocket healer with the best heals and defensive cooldowns in the game. White mage has just medica and medica only. Regen is for the most part becoming more and more useless as this game moves more to a burst heavy phase with slow mid healing required build up. The way wow did before they revamped healing.

Of course, that's how min-maxing works in this game. However, what do you define as "best heals?". Lustrate gives SCH the best functional single target burst heal in the game. Defensive cooldowns? In FCoB, you aren't using those on absolutely every single major tank buster + raid damage, so at that point, you're gonna need someone to bandaid people back up.

Oh look, WHM, who ONLY has Medica (and Cure III), can do that.

To re-touch upon the point of min-maxing, of course people are going to "play the class" that is more powerful. I personally feel SCH is more powerful than WHM. My beef with your argument is that you're basically claiming that WHM is SOOOOOOO underwhelming that NO ONE WILL PLAY IT.

Healing is becoming an issue with scholars being able to match and outpace white mages in every category. The only thing white mage brings is a stronger aoe heal and with a third healer coming into the game unless healing dynamics is changing to require 3 healers in raids you will see white mages benched. Only reason a white mage is used is because scholars cannot stack well. If scholars had a way to stack the adlo issue then white mages would be benched all together minus some people with snow flake syndrome wanting to feel special playing a weak job.

Until we know EXACTLY the following:

(1) The AST toolkit
(2) What new WHM tools there are
(3) What new SCH tools there are
(4) How Alexander fights are designed

You can only SPECULATE that White Mage will be benched. In the current iteration of raiding, the two work perfectly fine together.

Besides, who's to say. Maybe they'll give Cleric's Stance a trait that heals the target with the highest enmity for 100% of the damage done from the CNJ. While we can address certain weaknesses of each job and see what we can do for balance, blatently saying "White Mage is gonna be benched" is quite the hyperbole at the current juncture of information.

White mages need something else given to them then a magic defensive buff added to protection. 8% more on stoneskin is not even close to compare to a good scholar being able to split healing between them and manually using pet with rouse on different targets makes it much more flexible and adaptable. The issue is Scholars are too powerful.

I think I've just proven that Proshell is really uesful compared to what SCH can offer in terms of their Magic Defense buff, and that the 8% on Stoneskin isn't as terrible as you think it is.

Also, SCH heals one target, Fairy heals another? Or a White Mage that casts Medica II and says "Yeah, you're all gonna be okay now" in an 8 man?

In a four man, just give said DPS a Regen and just focus back on DPSing mobs / healing tank. *Shrugs*

Holy relies heavily on a bard to maintain momentum. Having mana issues without a bard ballad to maintain momentum will just mean larger periods of rest between pulls.

Enough has been said about this point already.

I am not saying that white mages cannot do extremely well I am saying that I am afraid Astrology will add something unique to the table to make them wanted over just healing which white mages is pretty much the only thing they can do. White mages could use maybe regen 2 which bypasses cleric stance to heal for full so that white mages can do more then just heal. Virus and eye for an eye is ok in 4 man content but they should be able to provide the same dps that a scholar brings which a regen they can cast without healing debuff in cleric stance would put them more on par with scholar pet healing. Either that or make it where scholar pets are also given the debuff when in cleric stance.

Maybe even give white mage a more advanced form of cleric stance since it is in their base job that gives them a potency strength per tick on regen.

We don't need something that allows use to bypass Cleric's Stance. Part of playing a WHM well is to be MORE efficient about our stance dancing than a SCH would.

I think here's what you don't understand.

Both healers are simple enough to play on paper. However, both have their unique challenges to the role.

SCHs need to micro manage their fairy, their aetherflow, and their pet/self buffs for maximum efficiency and productivity. They have higher APM and thus more flexibility with their actions.
WHMs need to consider what will be happening over the course of the next three to four GCDs. Because WHM is basically limited to a single action per GCD, they have to make every single spell and/or ability count for maximum effect.

Though I will admit, it would be interesting to see Cleric's Stance traited to allow for either more bonus for CNJ (maybe 15% versus 10%) or have it do just what I joked about earlier - While in Cleric's Stance, restore to the target's target 10% of the damage dealt.

*chuckles* I don't need to have bahamut prime to offer valid input on the two healers. I was in the high end for turn one and based on actual data from asking one of the best raid servers a lot of healers feel white mages are lacking. Most who use to main white mage go scholar for all duty finder groups.

Again, go back to min-maxing comment and about relevancy to current meta from a previous post.

What is redundant is having to go in and out of cleric stance every 3-4 seconds while scholars can stay in it for long periods if time with a bot healer allied to them.

Again, enough has been said about this point already.

I will reiterate then. I was for the first coils of bahamut which I controlled my pet manually back then and scholars did not really have many issues. We just did not have the near infinite mana we do now and had to focus on healing with less time between breaks to dps.

I think you severally under estimate how bad the launch AI was for the SCH. Like how I believe you severely overstate how powerful SCH is compared to WHM. I will agree though, the increased MP pools have allowed SCHs more freedom with their DPS.

Once more why not debate the issues over character assassination as a cheap alternative to pretend you are even responding over pure trolling. 2 years as a healer on here and a server full of healers on balmung who either lied to me or support what I say. Sorry if it bothers you that you want to remain stronger than white mages.

2 years a healer on here the server that has the world 2nd and world 3rd groups and I probably know equally as many people who like SCH more but don't see this "great divide that will bench WHM when AST is released". Sorry if it bothers you that believe scholars are as overpowered as it is in your head.

TLDR: Argument? What argument? Just thinly veiled attempts by the OP to bash a job without any hard evidence to support their claim.

TLDR #2: Trying to atom bomb the thread with a massive wall of text and make everyone's eyes pop out.

[Tranquil]

-snip-

Wasn't upset or mad, no worries, just felt like it was pretty pointless in the context of your otherwise solid message(s). I agree that SCH is infinitely easier at the skill floor where you just sort of get by in easy content and appear invisible.

The fairy always does "something" no matter how derpy the player in question is, there's no MP issues, no potential enmity issues (unlike with noob WHMs who abuse HoTs at a bad time) - this is why I agree with SCH being "faceroll" in certain ways if you wanna go where the fence is the lowest. Still, your point about faceroll content applies to both healers IMO. If we're talking about the troll towers, I can easily play WHM with one hand as well, with some Cures and Regen refreshes - you get the point.

However, this is not a big deal as we're not talking about healer weaknesses/strengths and about healer balancing based on faceroll content. Just felt like whatever you said there had no real place in this topic as it's already full of butthurt as is.

[Aeyis]

Lol? One of my best friends mains WHM and is exceedingly uncomfortable on SCH.

It works out great because I love SCH and am exceedingly uncomfortable on WHM.

WHM is great for any content in the game. *shrugs*

Just not as great as Scholars. 2 Scholars, no white mage? Np.
2 White mages? Dang, dat aoe gonna hurt.


Oh I'll play what I enjoy the most. But let's be real here. White mages are simply in a weaker position then Scholars, regardless if you want to have 1 Scholar and 1 White mage for your progression or not. If there's to be a choice between the 2 the Scholar almost always comes out more favorable, due to a plentora of reasons.

[Kaze3434]

Minus medica the white mage brings very little to the table when stoneskin and magic resistance on protection pales in comparison to what the scholar brings. I restate the only reason white mage is brought in at all is because scholar shields do not stack. If scholars were made to e able to stack with each other white mages would never be needed. The biggest example is mega and giga flare which can be dealt with by scholars so therefore the need of a white mage is purely based on allowing larger mistakes then anything else.

place holder text

[DarkmoonVael]

Minus medica the white mage brings very little to the table when stoneskin and magic resistance on protection pales in comparison to what the scholar brings. I restate the only reason white mage is brought in at all is because scholar shields do not stack. If scholars were made to e able to stack with each other white mages would never be needed. The biggest example is mega and giga flare which can be dealt with by scholars so therefore the need of a white mage is purely based on allowing larger mistakes then anything else.

The WHM brings the most powerful heals in the game. Tell me, do you also complain about BLM only bringing powerful DPS to a raid?

And no, SCH does not deal with mega flares and giga flares, thats the WHM who does that, with the help of a sacred soil. The SCH is usually taking advantage of the WHM powerful heals then and is DPSing, with selene out....you know....the fairy that brings buffs and very little healing with her? That one, yeah......

So your argument....maybe a bit misinformed perhaps.

Edit: plus, you don even have a WHM, so maybe go unlock it and play it in coil, which you seem to have not been in either.

[Aeyis]

The WHM bringsthe most powerful heals in the game. Tell me, do you also complain about BLM only bringing powerful DPS to a raid?

And no, SCH does not deal with mega flares and giga flares, thats the WHM who does that, with the help of a sacred soil. The SCH is usually taking advantage of the WHM powerful heals then and is DPSing, with selene out....you know....the fairy that brings buffs and very little healing with her? That one, yeah......

So your argument....maybe a bit misinformed perhaps.

Edit: plus, you don even have a WHM, so maybe go unlock it and play it in coil, which you seem to have not been in either.

That is neglecting the effects of a scholars damage reduction. However. I dont think the discussion is about the viability of having both a white mage and a scholar. But rather that if you were to have to choose, the scholar would perform far better in most scenarios.


His argument that if scholars stacked better with each other; then white mages would not be viable: is correct.

snip

Consider the effect it has that she focusses more on dps. And consider how it is possible.
Needless to say if a healer focusses more on dps, then yes they will heal less.

That said, considering the level of expertise of which you boast; you should be well aware that a scholars primairy strengths are not her pets healing.

[ZhycranaDranix]

And no, SCH does not deal with mega flares and giga flares, thats the WHM who does that, with the help of a sacred soil.

Let me take out my succor and virus and see how you like either of these options their ''GODLY WHM'' 1.)Someone dying or 2.) wasting our MP to patch up heals that I could mitigate with o I dunno SUCCOR AND VIRUS not to mention Fey for +30% MDEF and Then Sacred soil ....you know you named the worst buff out of all our buffs ? SCH deals with Giga Flares .......Period