NIN: Huton spam vs Skill Speed

[Judge_Xero]

Yeah come 3.0 things may change for the good, not only for Ninja but much needed changes for smn as well

I really hope they fix the Mudra System. I suck at following rotations and nothing gets me more flustered then the Mudras half going off/slow/inconsistent, to the point that I forget where I was in my rotation.

[Caraway]

The effect of Huton is significantly more powerful than the effect of Skill Speed. Additionally, Skill Speed takes up stat slots better used for core DPS increases.

It would take a significant amount of Skill Speed to match what Huton gives you and then even then you'd still want to apply Huton because it's multiplicative (whereas Skill Speed appears to be additive).

Personally, I weight my Skill Speed to the point of not actually hitting 2.0 while buffed with Huton. You start getting clipping issues with both Mudra and DoTs when you get to 2.0 and further so you're actually not doing yourself any favours (not to mention the insane TP burn). Which is why things like the Shiva daggers are a waste for me. I can easily get enough skill speed without actually statting for it to hit the thresholds I need for 2.0 without sacrificing any Det or Crit.

Now, you shouldn't be 'spamming' the Huton ninjutsu either. As plenty of people here have said, you should be reapplying it somewhere around the late tens/early twenties of seconds based on your skill speed and lag restraints. This is of course assuming you're not going to have a disconnect from the mob. If you are moving between packs or there's a phase change/boss movement that causes you to be unable to engage then depending on how long that disconnect is going to be I'll re-apply Huton early.

[Callinon]

I really hope they fix the Mudra System. I suck at following rotations and nothing gets me more flustered then the Mudras half going off/slow/inconsistent, to the point that I forget where I was in my rotation.

I'd like to see mudra inputs move client side so the server isn't having to verify each mudra as it's input. Would remove the mudra lag entirely and make the client be in charge of which ninjutsu was used.

My latency is generally pretty good (<40ms most of the time) but mudras still feel really slow and sometimes misfire. It's unreasonable to expect latency better than that and the system still doesn't work quite right. Needs fixed.

[Menae]

Yeah in a perfect world you could stack skill speed up to a 1.5GCD with Huton and still fit any Mudras in between.

Skills speed is also kind of bad in that it has diminishing returns with Huton.

2.5 GCD @ 0.85 % = 2.125 GCD (Difference of 0.375)
2.0 GCD @ 0.85 = 1.7 GCD (Difference of 0.3)

It will be interesting to see what they do in 3.0

This is misleading. Your numbers are correct, but Huton increases the number of abilities you get off in a given amount of time by about 17%, regardless of your skill speed, so it doesn't have diminishing returns.

[Judge_Xero]

This is misleading. Your numbers are correct, but Huton increases the number of abilities you get off in a given amount of time by about 17%, regardless of your skill speed, so it doesn't have diminishing returns.

Oh you are right. I never thought about it like that.
2.5s GCD = 24 attacks
2.125s GCD = 28 attacks or 16.66% more attacks

2.0s GCD = 30 attacks
1.7s GCD = 35 attacks or 16.66% more attacks

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Was also curious if Skill Speed changes the Ninja Rotation after a certain value.

Like @ 460+ Skill Speed should you open with
- Dancing Edge, Mutilate, Shadow Fang, instead of Dancing Edge, Shadow Fang, Mutilate, in order to alleviate some of the clipping caused by the extra speed.

[Felix_Grimoire]

Words

At 469 I experienced no significant dot clipping. Maybe an occasional clip at 1 sec, but most of the time the reapplication was perfect.

At 518 I experienced a dot clip at 3 sec with the regular rotation in the beginning, but the 3 input Mudras helped balance things later on and everything went back to normal with an occasional clip at 1-2 sec. I tried swapping Mutilate and SF and after one clip at 4 sec in the beginning I noticed the reapplications returned to normal sooner than when I did SF before Mutilate.

I think with current gear unless you are stacking SS to some ungodly number with crafted gear you won't be able to hit a SS value that will clip your dots at anything above 1-2 sec. For the sake of simplicity I did not count the reapplication of DE as something that could be clipped.

[Whiston]

Was also curious if Skill Speed changes the Ninja Rotation after a certain value.

Interesting point. I am positive at some point you will be clipping Shadow Fang substantially, prompting you to put Mutilate in between your Shadow Fang combos
(which I think would work out opposite of what you posted with Mutliate before), but inevitably, you will be clipping dots. The biggest problem with Ninja is that to delay your Shadow Fang, your options consist of Mutilate (which will be up for most reapplications of Shadow Fang) or an entire Aeolian Edge or Dancing edge combo, which instead of clipping shadow Fang by 3 or 4 seconds, will now have it dropped off for 4-6 seconds instead.
I think basically the realistically usable skill speed cap for Ninja is when you come close to clipping Shadow Fang with Huton up, and any further will have you clipping dots with no feasible means to delay their upkeep.

[Judge_Xero]

Interesting point. I am positive at some point you will be clipping Shadow Fang substantially, prompting you to put Mutilate in between your Shadow Fang combos

I think basically the realistically usable skill speed cap for Ninja is when you come close to clipping Shadow Fang with Huton up, and any further will have you clipping dots with no feasible means to delay their upkeep.

Here is the Rotation I came up with for a 2 Second GCD (502 Skill Speed ewww)

DE (3) M(1) SF(2) AE (3) AE(3)
DE (3) SF (2) M (1) AE (3) AE (3)
DE (3) SF (2) AE (3) M (1) AE (3)
DE (3) SF (2) AE (3) AE (3)
-> Repeat

It does loop around the DE SF M opener. Although I'm not sure if it changes the average potency/GCD VS a lower SPD rotation.

Edited: Comparing it to the normal Rotation

D - F - M - A
D - F - A
D - M - F - A
D - F - A - M
D - F - A --> Repeat

It looks like it would raise your average potency/s by 5% (but since it's only 3/4 of your damage without effecting AA Damage) total 3.75%?

Normal Rotation
Total : 10430 Potency
91.375s
114.25 potency/s

SPD Rotation
Total: 11240
94s
119.6 Potency/s


And if you have a Warrior keeping up Storms Eye - it might be a little better with clipping and gives you a 7% return (only 5% compared to total damage)

(7180 Potency over 62s (116 Potency/s) vs 58s (124 Potency/s)

SF (2) M (1) AE (3) AE (3)
SF (2) AE (3) AE (3) M (1)
SF (2) AE (3) AE (3) AE (3)
SF (2) M (1) AE (3) AE (3)

IMO, I don't think it's worth it at all.

@ 31 Skill Speed to equal the Value of 28 Crit (this is under the most ideal conditions)

[alsims2007]

This is misleading. Your numbers are correct, but Huton increases the number of abilities you get off in a given amount of time by about 17%, regardless of your skill speed, so it doesn't have diminishing returns.

Actually the math is correct but the numbers are not because huton doesn't work like his second formula. Huton is always 2.5 gcd x 0.85 =2.125 and then skill speed is factored on top. Unfortunately huton has no affect on skillspeed since it factors in first at base gcd (2.5). the last piece of the puzzle is autoattacks. But that varies by weapon. I think the same formula would apply though
y Weapon speed x 0.85 = z.

1. Huton Multiplies from base gcd vs (I think) .001 additive reduction per sksd.
2.Huton and grease lightning are the only abilities that speed up autoattacks.
Long story short both work separately to reduce gcd but sksp needs to be compared to det and crit which affect autoattacks unlike sksp

[Viridiana]

Actually the math is correct but the numbers are not because huton doesn't work like his second formula. Huton is always 2.5 gcd x 0.85 =2.125 and then skill speed is factored on top. Unfortunately huton has no affect on skillspeed since it factors in first at base gcd (2.5).

My current GCD is 2.43*.85=2.0655, rounded in the display to 2.07. If your math were right, I would be at 2.125-.07=2.05. So, you're wrong. >_>