Yoshi P, is this what you wanted? (Terra Branford Blues)

[Welsper59]

Why do you do this to yourself? Truly you can't be having fun. It must just seem like a mind-numbing job to do what you've done. The OP along with the Fenrir mount thread OP's actions eerily resembling that of those suffering from severe addiction. In no way am I ridiculing these individuals; there's nothing funny about addiction. Take a step back and ask yourselves if your lives are any fuller since you've acquired those virtual items.

On the topic of RNG: I agree the RNG obsession SE is running with is insane, but the reality is that subscriptions are steadily rising despite the rage. To them it must seem like a winning strategy and I don't see them letting up any time soon.

Speaking as someone who sorta does the same, and has done this sort of thing in the past with FFXI and WoW, it's about the personal achievement. You know those people that see something stupid or difficult/dangerous to do, but take it upon themselves to say "I can do that"? Yeah, that's the same mentality lol. It's a personal challenge, which is really what the prestige is of doing what you do, regardless of how difficult it was. You now have something of a badge of honor for doing what you did, even if others might have done it faster.

I'm sure you do the same yourself in some way, even if it may not be quite this extreme. Maybe you try to cap your Poetics for the week in one day, or you try to get all weekly related lockout goods done in one sitting, stuff like that. Personal goals or achievements that the game doesn't make for you, but that you make for yourself. As the person who made that Fenrir thread said "NO REGETS!" (typo intended).

[thendcomes]

Why do you do this to yourself?

You're totally right. It was demoralizing and not fun at all, but a part of me just wanted to see it to the end. A personal conquest and a story to tell. I was very aware of the self-destruction but I powered right through it anyway, for better or worse.

[Nova_Dresden]

I got what you meant, but you did say that. Otherwise, what purpose does your saying this serve when I literally asked if that person actually believed people enjoyed it?

Absolutely.

Clearly you were answering something... and given that a question was asked, kinda implies you were responding to that.

Don't confound what I'm saying with what you think I'm saying to inflate your opinion. What you asked specifically was...

Do you really believe people would enjoy the grind more if they knew they would get said item at this exact moment latest?

To which I answered, yes. I absolutely believe that players would enjoy the grind more if it was something quantifiable that you could plan on instead of a RNG based grind that could take you weeks or months to complete when another player could complete them in hours solely because the system is wholly uneven and unfair. Light grinding, books, and even novus materia melding were entirely quantifiable and were better than just the pure RNG in my opinion. It's not a defendable system unless you're one of the lucky ones that got the good rolls on the RNG. Even if you're a player that's been in the MMO world for the 20-ish years they've been out you shouldn't defend the pure RNG solely because "that's how it's been." There are middle grounds between the two, but none of them exist in the game right now and that's the problem.

The main reason is because you're implying the Gold Saucer was intended to keep people around. In other words, that it was to be the sole reason people would be on the game.

I know there are players on my server that re-upped their account solely for Gold Saucer. Triple Triad and chocobo racing was a huge draw to a lot of players.

[Madigari]

For example, I'll try to go step by step about what is happening here. The person I replied to had mentioned F2P games and how you can pay for things to get them right away. How people enjoy getting things. So, my reply was that, it's true that people enjoy getting things. But what's going to keep them around for a long time once they do this? That was my question about that format. What's going to keep people interested, if there's no goal left to achieve when you get what you want. Then you replied about hoping the devs would rely on "fun" to keep people around. You see how generic of a response that is? How little it adds, not to mention how much it degrades your own perspective on things?

Edit: I just looked it up. Servers shut down, so that might be it. One thing though... action RPG. You can't really compare the two when it comes to fun lol. Action games are the equivalent of hack and slash or beat-em-up games in most cases. I was expecting an MMORPG similar to FFXIV, WoW, etc as far as an example would be concerned. I mean, that'd be almost like me comparing Dragon's Crown to this game.

There's absolutely nothing generic about it. I've definitively told you: Farming for the Moggle Mog XII card is not fun. I haven't started on it yet, but I can imagine that farming for the Terra Branford card is equally not fun. It's the laziest and most sadistic method of introducing new content by forcing you to run content, some of which is over one year old and has long since lost its appeal, numerous times to try and get around an obscene drop rate. It's maintaining player activity in the worst way possible. I would absolutely be having more fun if I were playing Triple Triad with people or even NPCs. Triple Triad is meaningful content to me. Grinding instances, however, is not, and yet to fully enjoy the former, I'm stuck doing the latter.

And you absolutely can compare the two genres. They might play differently, but one will definitely steal my business away from the other based on how much more enjoyment I'm having with it compared to the other. For someone who keeps espousing about maintaining subscriptions and player activity, I shouldn't have to point that out. I can reference -any- genre, and so long as it is more fun and more enjoyable than FFXIV to the point of me ceasing to play FFXIV, then FFXIV is the loser in that scenario, no matter the genre. If I find something that is more fun and entertaining than taking another masochistic day (for what will now be the ninth day) of farming Moggle Mog XII (with probably the same results as the first eight), you can bet I will drop XIV for it, and that's a problem for XIV if other players feel the same way as me.

And, judging by a few responses in this thread, some other players do.

[Madigari]

Why do you do this to yourself? Truly you can't be having fun. It must just seem like a mind-numbing job to do what you've done. The OP along with the Fenrir mount thread OP's actions eerily resembling that of those suffering from severe addiction. In no way am I ridiculing these individuals; there's nothing funny about addiction. Take a step back and ask yourselves if your lives are any fuller since you've acquired those virtual items.

I truly am not having fun running the content to get the cards, this is true. But I do it because once (read: if) I get over this ridiculous, tall, RNG-sitting-at-the-top-and-jeering-down-at-me hurdle, I will have more fun playing Triple Triad because I've always loved that game since FFVIII, to the point of owning the real life versions they released in Japan around the same time as VIII.

But even I have my limits, and I don't think they're going to be pushed to the extent of three weeks. I'll just find something more fun to do, probably about in five days or so.

[DarkDedede]

I'm thinking they should have multiple ways to obtain a certain card (trials, npcs, packs, achievements, buy it with MP, etc). That way, people can choose a grind to their preference, and possibly enjoy what they choose.

I'm also thinking that there needs to be adequate consolation for grinding, when the player doesn't obtain the rarer of results. I'm going to assume this involves increasing the MP selling value of duplicate cards.

[RiceisNice]

ADS card, drop in frontlines, make it happen!

OT though, I skimmed through and people seem to really have a gripe that most of the grind always falls back to the same baseline, regardless of what content it is; something I agree that needs to be stopped to an extent.

People kept talking about TT and how it would take up their time. I'm pretty sure they meant that in the sense in that they would be playing against NPCs and other players to get cards one way or another (through wins or purchases with MGP), not farming trials/dungeons like we've been doing for relic/zodiac, glamour drops and mounts. It doesn't breathe much new life into the game because it falls back to the same content/formula that's present in the game (which seems to pass itself off as a "Theme park" of sorts).

I could say it "involves finding a gold needle in a needle sack", and it can describe the following
>Atma
>Terra Branford
>4★ Tokens without overgearing
>Getting Fenfir Mount within the next year or two
>Getting the full Gambler's Set within the next year or two
>Zodiac Drops

You can say it's optional content. But that's a lot of optional content that falls to the same RNG clutch, and some of it really doesn't make sense. Atma might've been fine at the time when animus was the highest step, but it definitely was not when Nexus came in. You're making people do non-TT content to get TT stuff, so on and so fourth.

[Kiara]

The existence of RNG serves more than as an irritation. It serves a huge role in why people stay (and why some go). It serves the purpose of what makes an RPG, an RPG. It keeps the player attached to their rewards. It prevents the outcome that a player would feel like they completed a game quickly (something an MMORPG does not want to do... arguing otherwise is ridiculous). It brings about prestige, something that was/is a huge beneficial factor behind the success of MMORPGs.

Welsper,

From your numerous posts on this subject you are clearly a fan of Pure RNG and believe it's a cornerstone of MMORPGs. I respect your opinion, but disagree.

There are some key flaws with this argument:

1. Pure RNG to "keep people busy" is an archaic, outdated methodology from the early days of MMOs.

Heck, early RPGs used to give out Quests and had No Quest Journal (nor any "!" (Markers) above people's heads or on maps), and people used to have to write it down on paper and figure out where to go next / how to solve things.

But that's changed over the years. Why? For convenience, sanity, quality of life, etc. Customers gave feedback and developers changed and improved.


2. Pure RNG doesn't work with a game as *fast-paced* as FF XIV. Gear / Drops get outdated FAST in this game.

If this was Final Fantasy XI, or earlier MMOs, where your gear mattered for more than ~5 - 6 months, then sure, that super low drop rate on Valkurm Emperor, or trying to get your O.Kote from Mee Deggi that took you MONTHS of grinding might've made sense, but not here.

There are numerous pieces of gear from First Coil, 2nd Coil, and now in Final Coil, that have NEVER dropped for me (nor my friends), and the content moved on, and was already outdated and we just gave up; it's worthless now.

Yoshi P has made this game too fast (vertically), IMHO, but with that fast-paced method, Pure RNG just fails.


3. You claim Pure RNG adds to "prestige". Totally disagree.

Ask any of the hardcore raiders from 1.0, about how they felt when they saw someone run around with a piece of Darklight Gear (the best gear at that time), that they didn't get yet. The answer was invariably:

"That guy got lucky."

It wasn't "That guy was skilled!" Or "Wow he's prestigious."

Because it wasn't. With the super low, pure RNG on Darklight, it was about how LUCKY you got with a drop, not that it was prestigious. People were just glad to finally get the drop and never bother running Aurum Vale 5 Chest, 17 Min Speed Runs any more.

You seem deathly afraid that, gasp, SE would run out of content if they didn't rely on pure RNG. That's not a reason to subject all players to absurd RNG like this.

The solution is to design more content, more variety of content, and have systems that engender fun in repeating the content, not mindless Dungeon Runs or Fates or beating the same easy enemy 200 times to try and get a drop.

[Welsper59]

Welsper,

From your numerous posts on this subject you are clearly a fan of Pure RNG and believe it's a cornerstone of MMORPGs. I respect your opinion, but disagree.

There are some key flaws with this argument:

1. Pure RNG to "keep people busy" is an archaic, outdated methodology from the early days of MMOs.

Heck, early RPGs used to give out Quests and had No Quest Journal (nor any "!" (Markers) above people's heads or on maps), and people used to have to write it down on paper and figure out where to go next / how to solve things.

But that's changed over the years. Why? For convenience, sanity, quality of life, etc. Customers gave feedback and developers changed and improved.


2. Pure RNG doesn't work with a game as *fast-paced* as FF XIV. Gear / Drops get outdated FAST in this game.

If this was Final Fantasy XI, or earlier MMOs, where your gear mattered for more than ~5 - 6 months, then sure, that super low drop rate on Valkurm Emperor, or trying to get your O.Kote from Mee Deggi that took you MONTHS of grinding might've made sense, but not here.

There are numerous pieces of gear from First Coil, 2nd Coil, and now in Final Coil, that have NEVER dropped for me (nor my friends), and the content moved on, and was already outdated and we just gave up; it's worthless now.

Yoshi P has made this game too fast (vertically), IMHO, but with that fast-paced method, Pure RNG just fails.


3. You claim Pure RNG adds to "prestige". Totally disagree.

Ask any of the hardcore raiders from 1.0, about how they felt when they saw someone run around with a piece of Darklight Gear (the best gear at that time), that they didn't get yet. The answer was invariably:

"That guy got lucky."

It wasn't "That guy was skilled!" Or "Wow he's prestigious."

Because it wasn't. With the super low, pure RNG on Darklight, it was about how LUCKY you got with a drop, not that it was prestigious. People were just glad to finally get the drop and never bother running Aurum Vale 5 Chest, 17 Min Speed Runs any more.

You seem deathly afraid that, gasp, SE would run out of content if they didn't rely on pure RNG. That's not a reason to subject all players to absurd RNG like this.

The solution is to design more content, more variety of content, and have systems that engender fun in repeating the content, not mindless Dungeon Runs or Fates or beating the same easy enemy 200 times to try and get a drop.

1) While I don't disagree with that, are you implying that any game that sports pure RNG is, by default, bad? Clearly, the game and genre has always done that in some way, yet here you are... is it possible that something right is going on with the design, that it's fulfilling its purpose and that it's not as impacting or prevalent as you all are making it out to be? To say that the form itself is archaic and outdated implies that it should never be used, under any circumstance, because there is a better formula that exists. "Archaic" might be right, just because of how things change over time, but "outdated" implies that it should never be used.

2) This, I can agree with wholeheartedly... when it comes to gear. But we're not talking about gear with this thread, are we? The Terra card, as far as we know, is a long term horizontal item and fits the bill of what you described with the FFXI reference. It's not even progression related, so it's not necessary for anything, exception being if you either really like the character and want that specific card or are avidly trying to obtain everything.

3) Of course it won't be seen as prestigious to the people around the person that got it. To the person who gets it, however, it is. Why would you ask someone other than the person who got something, how they felt about it? LOL That's like asking what others think of someone that owns a Lamborghini... I'm sure you'd expect them to say "I bet that person is awesome!". Prestige may have been the wrong word to use on my end (though it can be applicable to friends or those that this person knows, since it is based on perspective to the individual, NOT everyone), but perhaps a gloating tool. Something that makes you different from others in some way. The struggle is definitely real, but the relief and enjoyment that comes from it also is. Just as I said and the OP stated:

A personal conquest and a story to tell.

Honestly, it doesn't have much to do with SE, so much as it does to the system itself, regardless of who designs the game. If they want to get rid of RNG, so be it. If not, there's a reason. Just like you have a reason to hate on it, they have a reason to use it. If you don't agree with it, and it means that much to you, don't support games that use it. Many people hate on it, but most don't feel it means enough to draw them away from the game entirely (otherwise, we wouldn't see anyone at all). It can certainly weigh heavily on you over time, but EVERYTHING can do that... even something you see as fun. It's easy to spout a solution, but it's another story to actually make it happen.

Maybe SE dug themselves into a grave when they committed to new content every 3 months for that. Either way though, the genre sports one thing that makes it stand out from others. It can change over time. I'm defending the purpose of it, and why developers still use it (obviously it's a fallback in some cases), but for the MMORPG genre, where content is always added and MUST be added in reasonable time to keep people from being overly bored, it's not exactly something to turn away from. You can't just demand more without understanding if it's realistically possible. Then again, we are consumers... we're not exactly the most sound of people to have realistic expectations.

[Welsper59]

Don't confound what I'm saying with what you think I'm saying to inflate your opinion. What you asked specifically was...



To which I answered, yes. I absolutely believe that players would enjoy the grind more if it was something quantifiable that you could plan on instead of a RNG based grind that could take you weeks or months to complete when another player could complete them in hours solely because the system is wholly uneven and unfair. Light grinding, books, and even novus materia melding were entirely quantifiable and were better than just the pure RNG in my opinion. It's not a defendable system unless you're one of the lucky ones that got the good rolls on the RNG. Even if you're a player that's been in the MMO world for the 20-ish years they've been out you shouldn't defend the pure RNG solely because "that's how it's been." There are middle grounds between the two, but none of them exist in the game right now and that's the problem.



I know there are players on my server that re-upped their account solely for Gold Saucer. Triple Triad and chocobo racing was a huge draw to a lot of players.

As I stated in that reply, you're referring to something being easier by comparison to the other methods already required to do it. The format itself is no more enjoyable with mindless quantifiable content than it is with RNG. Both ways involve you redoing stuff (as is MMORPG expectations), both ways involve you enduring repetition (tome capping/farming, weekly CT/Coil, etc; stuff that is boring but we're used to). Why is that difficult to see? I even provided examples of this lol. My question centered around a sole concept as being an enjoyable process, again, something that I provided examples for and that, I'd think, you'd also agree isn't exactly "enjoyable". Enjoying the process is irrelevant to enjoying the reward. I'm not saying that it needs to ALWAYS exist, but that it serves a purpose, even if just temporary. And that's where feedback comes in. RNG separates people for a specific reason, but that's also why they lighten up on it over time (usually). Again, I'm not arguing that it needs to always be there, just that it has a purpose.

Also, just because a player does something for whatever reason, doesn't mean that it's the intent behind its creation. I could log on solely to just run around without gear, kill mobs without gear, etc. Was that literally intended by the devs for me to do? I would think not lol. I can if I want to though. A player, such as myself, may be playing specifically for one thing... but it doesn't mean that the reason they made it was to keep me here and ONLY here. The Gold Saucer is simply more content for players, as a whole, to take part in. Mind you, as I was implying in that post you quoted, the Gold Saucer was NOT intended to keep you away from the rest of the game. We, as players, don't have to follow that intent, so if we want to make it the reason we sub... so be it... doesn't mean that's what the devs literally intend for me to do though.

There's absolutely nothing generic about it. I've definitively told you: Farming for the Moggle Mog XII card is not fun. I haven't started on it yet, but I can imagine that farming for the Terra Branford card is equally not fun. It's the laziest and most sadistic method of introducing new content by forcing you to run content, some of which is over one year old and has long since lost its appeal, numerous times to try and get around an obscene drop rate. It's maintaining player activity in the worst way possible. I would absolutely be having more fun if I were playing Triple Triad with people or even NPCs. Triple Triad is meaningful content to me. Grinding instances, however, is not, and yet to fully enjoy the former, I'm stuck doing the latter.

And you absolutely can compare the two genres. They might play differently, but one will definitely steal my business away from the other based on how much more enjoyment I'm having with it compared to the other. For someone who keeps espousing about maintaining subscriptions and player activity, I shouldn't have to point that out. I can reference -any- genre, and so long as it is more fun and more enjoyable than FFXIV to the point of me ceasing to play FFXIV, then FFXIV is the loser in that scenario, no matter the genre. If I find something that is more fun and entertaining than taking another masochistic day (for what will now be the ninth day) of farming Moggle Mog XII (with probably the same results as the first eight), you can bet I will drop XIV for it, and that's a problem for XIV if other players feel the same way as me.

And, judging by a few responses in this thread, some other players do.

You're still not understanding what that reply was stating. You're arguing a topic that had nothing to do with that (of which if we were talking about that, I could agree with on some parts). My original question (which was aimed at someone else talking about F2P games) dealt with the aftermath (where you bought everything you wanted) and your earlier reply about "fun" suggested you were onboard with that derailed topic. Then you spout stuff about how you acquire this gear... you acquire the gear by paying for it in that argument. Don't jump in on an argument/debate without knowing what it's about.

And no, you can't compare genres on expectations of fun. I take that back, you could... but it'd be completely irrelevant. For example, I could say I really enjoy visual novels and hate the fact I'm playing a game that makes me have to actually control a character, since I'd rather read about the battles, so they need to change the way the game is, otherwise...

you can bet I will drop XIV for it

The reason you can only credibly compare games within a single genre is because of reasons like that. You have to compare what is possible within the limitations of the genre, otherwise, you'd be changing it. You can certainly compare certain aspects of it, but it's extremely limited. For example, you can compare limited resources in a Survival Horror game to something related to limited resources in another genre. That isn't necessarily comparing genres though, since it's not limited to one genre, so much as it is comparing secondary design ideas. Universal ideas that any genre may or may not have (like voiced characters). You can SUGGEST content that makes a different genre what it is, such as scares that a horror game would have, but you can't COMPARE the two.