Yoshi P, is this what you wanted? (Terra Branford Blues)

[Nova_Dresden]

It just wouldn't be FFXIV without RNG.

Just because something bad exists doesn't mean it should. Pure RNG based gaming can and usually will destroy the player's desire to play the game instead of finding something else to play which lowers your overall profit from losing subscribers. Zanarken hit the nail on the head.

From the programmer's perspective it is a consistent random formula because when you look at ALL PLAYERS drop rates, there is a clear pattern and enough drops are happening per hour (or whatever criteria they are using as the barometer) that the devs feel the system is balanced.

A pure RNG sytem relies heavily on the law of large numbers where when thousands or millions of players are grinding something the overall drop rate for the item falls in line with the intended drop rate averaged across all players. This however causes a problem where you end up with a decent sized group of players who fall outside the standard deviation and have a drop rate of 0%. This is where safety nets and timers come in where if the RNG doesn't pay out as expected within the time determined to be fair the rate steadily should increase until reaching 100% and providing you with your item. FFXIV has none of that and you are completely capable of never getting a drop ever if the game just doesn't like you.

Do you really believe people would enjoy the grind more if they knew they would get said item at this exact moment latest?

Absolutely. I've never seen anyone complain about books, light grind, or mahatma anywhere near as much as Atma and dungeon "atma". What I actually heard instead as a huge sigh of relief on both parts that the next phase was quantifiable and plannable. Pure RNG is absolute crap and defending it is just as dumb.

[Madigari]

Just because something bad exists doesn't mean it should. Pure RNG based gaming can and usually will destroy the player's desire to play the game instead of finding something else to play which lowers your overall profit from losing subscribers.

Well, I think I said just that in the rest of my post, but, just to clarify, I agree. I might not have started farming Terra yet, but I have my own RNG headache with the Moggle Mog XII card.

[Welsper59]

Absolutely. I've never seen anyone complain about books, light grind, or mahatma anywhere near as much as Atma and dungeon "atma". What I actually heard instead as a huge sigh of relief on both parts that the next phase was quantifiable and plannable. Pure RNG is absolute crap and defending it is just as dumb.

They're not complaining about it because it's the oddball of the process. You're really not looking at how the process itself is because you're comparing it to things that are approached differently. You have to compare it to maybe tome gear or acquiring gil. Trackable resources that are used to getting these things. Then apply how you get them. Believing people enjoy the books for what they are in general is really ignorant and very biased. Even your mention of the lights falls into this perspective. How many people ENJOY (keyword there and one that you apparently replied to) the process? Your happiness while you grind to the goal is no different than it is while you grind through RNG. Enjoying something is not the same as thinking something is easier. Huge difference there. The only defining factors is that you know there is an end when there is no RNG... doesn't mean you're enjoying your time to it though (again, no different).

Again, as I pointed out in the earlier reply, just look at dungeon runs and how ridiculous people become about negatively looking at an instance taking 1 minute longer. About how long it takes to get MGP, a trackable resource. About the cost of housing, a trackable goal and resource (gil). The complaints/boredom/anger/etc that sparked RNG hate is still there, it's just redirected. I guess there's honestly no point to convincing people why a system exists when all they care about is their own satisfaction and how their own impatience is causing a clear sense of bias. One could argue defending the existence of RNG as being selfish, but those arguments aren't ignoring what category/genre of game we're talking about here. Nor is it ignoring the business side of things (the sole reason the game even exists). Mind you, again, as I said, there can be too much RNG involved, but that depends on the time allotted for the content to exist and the future prospect of nerfs in an MMORPG.

[Nova_Dresden]

Believing people enjoy the books for what they are in general is really ignorant and very biased.

I never, in any way, said that. What I said was " I've never seen anyone complain about books, light grind, or mahatma anywhere near as much as Atma and dungeon 'atma'." I still hear complaints about those steps, but they pale in comparison to the complaints I hear on atma and dungeon grinds. I'm still very vocal about how much I LOATHE the Novus materia step. I think it's the worst designed aspect of this entire weapon and still get royally pissed anytime I think about that phase. But even then it was quantifiable in that I need 75 alexandrite and enough materia to complete the process. No RNG attached in any way. Even at its worst the only thing % based was the melding and it never got below 50%. Books were quantifiable. Get the currency, buy the book, do the requirements, rinse, repeat....TA-DAA Animus weapon acquired. Light grinding sucked, but it was quantified at 2000 light and you just needed to get the light on your own terms and at your own speed; same with Mahatma. Atma and dungeon grinds are just a crap shoot where you could be done in a day, a week, a month, or a year all depending on what the game decided to roll for you.

Pure RNG is pointless and does nothing more than to make a player upset. There has to be a middle ground between RNG and "Go collect me 8000 kobold ears", but as long as RNG only is being defended it won't happen.

[Welsper59]

I never, in any way, said that. What I said was " I've never seen anyone complain about books, light grind, or mahatma anywhere near as much as Atma and dungeon 'atma'." I still hear complaints about those steps, but they pale in comparison to the complaints I hear on atma and dungeon grinds. I'm still very vocal about how much I LOATHE the Novus materia step. I think it's the worst designed aspect of this entire weapon and still get royally pissed anytime I think about that phase. But even then it was quantifiable in that I need 75 alexandrite and enough materia to complete the process. No RNG attached in any way. Even at its worst the only thing % based was the melding and it never got below 50%. Books were quantifiable. Get the currency, buy the book, do the requirements, rinse, repeat....TA-DAA Animus weapon acquired. Light grinding sucked, but it was quantified at 2000 light and you just needed to get the light on your own terms and at your own speed; same with Mahatma. Atma and dungeon grinds are just a crap shoot where you could be done in a day, a week, a month, or a year all depending on what the game decided to roll for you.

Pure RNG is pointless and does nothing more than to make a player upset. There has to be a middle ground between RNG and "Go collect me 8000 kobold ears", but as long as RNG only is being defended it won't happen.

I got what you meant, but you did say that. Otherwise, what purpose does your saying this serve when I literally asked if that person actually believed people enjoyed it?

Absolutely.

Clearly you were answering something... and given that a question was asked, kinda implies you were responding to that. Perhaps you were referring to the "more" part on my half? If so, then that's wrong. As I pointed out in an earlier post, it's not that people "enjoyed" it, it's that people found it "easier". The general populous enjoying the books was only in reference to the rest of the content being RNG. If it weren't for the RNG, you'd be looking at it like tomes/gil/MGP/etc... resources that, generally speaking, people don't find the methods to acquire "enjoyable". You can find something easy and not enjoy it afterall, as I'm sure you know as well.

The existence of RNG serves more than as an irritation. It serves a huge role in why people stay (and why some go). It serves the purpose of what makes an RPG, an RPG. It keeps the player attached to their rewards. It prevents the outcome that a player would feel like they completed a game quickly (something an MMORPG does not want to do... arguing otherwise is ridiculous). It brings about prestige, something that was/is a huge beneficial factor behind the success of MMORPGs. At some point though, it needs to be let up, and that's what we see happen for some content (like Atma). It's unfortunate that there are apparently 2 arguments going on regarding RNG. One saying that they're not asking for complete removal, and another that is implying it should be removed (because why would you keep something pointless around).

[Kiara]

The existence of RNG serves more than as an irritation. It serves a huge role in why people stay (and why some go). It serves the purpose of what makes an RPG, an RPG. It keeps the player attached to their rewards. It prevents the outcome that a player would feel like they completed a game quickly (something an MMORPG does not want to do... arguing otherwise is ridiculous). It brings about prestige, something that was/is a huge beneficial factor behind the success of MMORPGs.

Welsper,

From your numerous posts on this subject you are clearly a fan of Pure RNG and believe it's a cornerstone of MMORPGs. I respect your opinion, but disagree.

There are some key flaws with this argument:

1. Pure RNG to "keep people busy" is an archaic, outdated methodology from the early days of MMOs.

Heck, early RPGs used to give out Quests and had No Quest Journal (nor any "!" (Markers) above people's heads or on maps), and people used to have to write it down on paper and figure out where to go next / how to solve things.

But that's changed over the years. Why? For convenience, sanity, quality of life, etc. Customers gave feedback and developers changed and improved.


2. Pure RNG doesn't work with a game as *fast-paced* as FF XIV. Gear / Drops get outdated FAST in this game.

If this was Final Fantasy XI, or earlier MMOs, where your gear mattered for more than ~5 - 6 months, then sure, that super low drop rate on Valkurm Emperor, or trying to get your O.Kote from Mee Deggi that took you MONTHS of grinding might've made sense, but not here.

There are numerous pieces of gear from First Coil, 2nd Coil, and now in Final Coil, that have NEVER dropped for me (nor my friends), and the content moved on, and was already outdated and we just gave up; it's worthless now.

Yoshi P has made this game too fast (vertically), IMHO, but with that fast-paced method, Pure RNG just fails.


3. You claim Pure RNG adds to "prestige". Totally disagree.

Ask any of the hardcore raiders from 1.0, about how they felt when they saw someone run around with a piece of Darklight Gear (the best gear at that time), that they didn't get yet. The answer was invariably:

"That guy got lucky."

It wasn't "That guy was skilled!" Or "Wow he's prestigious."

Because it wasn't. With the super low, pure RNG on Darklight, it was about how LUCKY you got with a drop, not that it was prestigious. People were just glad to finally get the drop and never bother running Aurum Vale 5 Chest, 17 Min Speed Runs any more.

You seem deathly afraid that, gasp, SE would run out of content if they didn't rely on pure RNG. That's not a reason to subject all players to absurd RNG like this.

The solution is to design more content, more variety of content, and have systems that engender fun in repeating the content, not mindless Dungeon Runs or Fates or beating the same easy enemy 200 times to try and get a drop.

[Welsper59]

Welsper,

From your numerous posts on this subject you are clearly a fan of Pure RNG and believe it's a cornerstone of MMORPGs. I respect your opinion, but disagree.

There are some key flaws with this argument:

1. Pure RNG to "keep people busy" is an archaic, outdated methodology from the early days of MMOs.

Heck, early RPGs used to give out Quests and had No Quest Journal (nor any "!" (Markers) above people's heads or on maps), and people used to have to write it down on paper and figure out where to go next / how to solve things.

But that's changed over the years. Why? For convenience, sanity, quality of life, etc. Customers gave feedback and developers changed and improved.


2. Pure RNG doesn't work with a game as *fast-paced* as FF XIV. Gear / Drops get outdated FAST in this game.

If this was Final Fantasy XI, or earlier MMOs, where your gear mattered for more than ~5 - 6 months, then sure, that super low drop rate on Valkurm Emperor, or trying to get your O.Kote from Mee Deggi that took you MONTHS of grinding might've made sense, but not here.

There are numerous pieces of gear from First Coil, 2nd Coil, and now in Final Coil, that have NEVER dropped for me (nor my friends), and the content moved on, and was already outdated and we just gave up; it's worthless now.

Yoshi P has made this game too fast (vertically), IMHO, but with that fast-paced method, Pure RNG just fails.


3. You claim Pure RNG adds to "prestige". Totally disagree.

Ask any of the hardcore raiders from 1.0, about how they felt when they saw someone run around with a piece of Darklight Gear (the best gear at that time), that they didn't get yet. The answer was invariably:

"That guy got lucky."

It wasn't "That guy was skilled!" Or "Wow he's prestigious."

Because it wasn't. With the super low, pure RNG on Darklight, it was about how LUCKY you got with a drop, not that it was prestigious. People were just glad to finally get the drop and never bother running Aurum Vale 5 Chest, 17 Min Speed Runs any more.

You seem deathly afraid that, gasp, SE would run out of content if they didn't rely on pure RNG. That's not a reason to subject all players to absurd RNG like this.

The solution is to design more content, more variety of content, and have systems that engender fun in repeating the content, not mindless Dungeon Runs or Fates or beating the same easy enemy 200 times to try and get a drop.

1) While I don't disagree with that, are you implying that any game that sports pure RNG is, by default, bad? Clearly, the game and genre has always done that in some way, yet here you are... is it possible that something right is going on with the design, that it's fulfilling its purpose and that it's not as impacting or prevalent as you all are making it out to be? To say that the form itself is archaic and outdated implies that it should never be used, under any circumstance, because there is a better formula that exists. "Archaic" might be right, just because of how things change over time, but "outdated" implies that it should never be used.

2) This, I can agree with wholeheartedly... when it comes to gear. But we're not talking about gear with this thread, are we? The Terra card, as far as we know, is a long term horizontal item and fits the bill of what you described with the FFXI reference. It's not even progression related, so it's not necessary for anything, exception being if you either really like the character and want that specific card or are avidly trying to obtain everything.

3) Of course it won't be seen as prestigious to the people around the person that got it. To the person who gets it, however, it is. Why would you ask someone other than the person who got something, how they felt about it? LOL That's like asking what others think of someone that owns a Lamborghini... I'm sure you'd expect them to say "I bet that person is awesome!". Prestige may have been the wrong word to use on my end (though it can be applicable to friends or those that this person knows, since it is based on perspective to the individual, NOT everyone), but perhaps a gloating tool. Something that makes you different from others in some way. The struggle is definitely real, but the relief and enjoyment that comes from it also is. Just as I said and the OP stated:

A personal conquest and a story to tell.

Honestly, it doesn't have much to do with SE, so much as it does to the system itself, regardless of who designs the game. If they want to get rid of RNG, so be it. If not, there's a reason. Just like you have a reason to hate on it, they have a reason to use it. If you don't agree with it, and it means that much to you, don't support games that use it. Many people hate on it, but most don't feel it means enough to draw them away from the game entirely (otherwise, we wouldn't see anyone at all). It can certainly weigh heavily on you over time, but EVERYTHING can do that... even something you see as fun. It's easy to spout a solution, but it's another story to actually make it happen.

Maybe SE dug themselves into a grave when they committed to new content every 3 months for that. Either way though, the genre sports one thing that makes it stand out from others. It can change over time. I'm defending the purpose of it, and why developers still use it (obviously it's a fallback in some cases), but for the MMORPG genre, where content is always added and MUST be added in reasonable time to keep people from being overly bored, it's not exactly something to turn away from. You can't just demand more without understanding if it's realistically possible. Then again, we are consumers... we're not exactly the most sound of people to have realistic expectations.

[Niwashi]

True, but what's to keep them around once they get the thing they want?

Ideally, you'd think the thing that would keep them around is them having fun, not that they have content being held hostage behind luck and old instances/trials.

But once you've gotten everything you wanted and no longer have any goals to work towards, it stops being fun.

RPGs (either single or MMO) are a very goal-oriented genre, one that's almost exclusively focused on progressing your character in one way or another. That might be progressing through a storyline, advancing their level, gaining wealth, upgrading gear, acquiring whole whole collections of cosmetic or vanity items, etc. But there are always goals to achieve. Once you've achieved your current goal, you move on to another, and once you've achieved all your goals in that game, then you've finished the game and it's over.

On that last point, the single and MMO versions of RPGs are rather different. A single-player RPG is supposed to be finish-able. That, too, is one of its goals, a kind of meta-goal of completing all the others. An MMO, on the other hand, is supposed to be ongoing, where you should never finish it. So completing all of your goals there is a failure condition, indicating the game didn't have enough content to keep you.

I'm thinking they should have multiple ways to obtain a certain card (trials, npcs, packs, achievements, buy it with MP, etc). That way, people can choose a grind to their preference, and possibly enjoy what they choose.

This I completely agree with, though. We need grind in an MMORPG. It would be completely boring without it. But giving people more choices, so each can do whichever type of grind they personally most enjoy, would be a big help. Grinding only annoys people when they face having to grind content they don't like in order to then be able to grind the content they do like.