Yoshi P, is this what you wanted? (Terra Branford Blues)

[RobinRethiel]

Do you really believe people would enjoy the grind more if they knew they would get said item at this exact moment latest?

Most people hate grind, if you put RNG in it, this only makes it better, if the RNG eases the grind. If the RNG worsens it, it's bad².

Said it before in another thread: a simple look at F2P games proves it. Those games use RNG and grinding mechanics to make money. Both mechanics are annoying for most people, so people even dig deep into their pocket to avoid it. If the normal player would like these mechanics, this would not work out.

And if people would like to grind with or without rng, they would do it even without any reward. But it's just a necessary evil.

Sure, it CAN also be boring, if you get everything for free (though there are enough games without leveling and equipment to buy, which people still play, because it's fun to play them), but really:
Beside the lag problems at Titan, the first part of the Relict Quest was the best. No grind at all. A challenge, but no grind. And no RNG (well, a little bit, if you take the weapon material drop and the materia, but that was within limits).

[Welsper59]

Most people hate grind, if you put RNG in it, this only makes it better, if the RNG eases the grind. If the RNG worsens it, it's bad².

Said it before in another thread: a simple look at F2P games proves it. Those games use RNG and grinding mechanics to make money. Both mechanics are annoying for most people, so people even dig deep into their pocket to avoid it. If the normal player would like these mechanics, this would not work out.

True, but what's to keep them around once they get the thing they want? I certainly wouldn't stick around for months if there was nothing to do the entire time until the next patch update. First and foremost, this is a business... one that they want to keep people invested in the game realistically. If people feel satisfied with the game, and feel they have everything they want from it (even if it's just until the next patch), you'll generally move on. It's not quite so linear of a thought that needs to be considered as you might believe it is, where all they need to worry about is giving people everything when they expect it.

Why do you think F2P MMORPG games never retain a large dedicated player population? There's many reasons and only a few deal with RNG. It's all about the psychology behind the marketing and design. Unfortunately, psychology and how to manipulate the pleasures and drive of people is too complicated for most, so they'll go on believing that things don't have to be a certain way in order for it to work as a business/product, when... that just isn't how it works if you expect success.

Sure, it CAN also be boring, if you get everything for free (though there are enough games without leveling and equipment to buy, which people still play, because it's fun to play them), but really:
Beside the lag problems at Titan, the first part of the Relict Quest was the best. No grind at all. A challenge, but no grind. And no RNG (well, a little bit, if you take the weapon material drop and the materia, but that was within limits).

Exactly, people can find anything fun if it suits their style. But... think about those games you're referring to, then think about where they stand now as an MMORPG. Are they catering to as many people as WoW? Or FFXIV? I'm willing to bet no. You're right that the beginning part of the relic quest was great. But then what? What could they do to have kept it in line like that without making it the faceroll that we look at Zenith as today? It's just like the Soldiery weapons, it is now the norm go-to weapon because of how quick and simple it is, just as the Zenith weapons were looked at prior. You folks only look at things for the immediate sense, not for the long term. I ask again, how would they go about making such high end gear available without it being a quick and faceroll process? If all gear/rewards were obtainable as fast as it was to get the Zenith weapon at any point of FFXIV, I think we'd be bored very quick lol.

[Nova_Dresden]

Believing people enjoy the books for what they are in general is really ignorant and very biased.

I never, in any way, said that. What I said was " I've never seen anyone complain about books, light grind, or mahatma anywhere near as much as Atma and dungeon 'atma'." I still hear complaints about those steps, but they pale in comparison to the complaints I hear on atma and dungeon grinds. I'm still very vocal about how much I LOATHE the Novus materia step. I think it's the worst designed aspect of this entire weapon and still get royally pissed anytime I think about that phase. But even then it was quantifiable in that I need 75 alexandrite and enough materia to complete the process. No RNG attached in any way. Even at its worst the only thing % based was the melding and it never got below 50%. Books were quantifiable. Get the currency, buy the book, do the requirements, rinse, repeat....TA-DAA Animus weapon acquired. Light grinding sucked, but it was quantified at 2000 light and you just needed to get the light on your own terms and at your own speed; same with Mahatma. Atma and dungeon grinds are just a crap shoot where you could be done in a day, a week, a month, or a year all depending on what the game decided to roll for you.

Pure RNG is pointless and does nothing more than to make a player upset. There has to be a middle ground between RNG and "Go collect me 8000 kobold ears", but as long as RNG only is being defended it won't happen.

[Ashkendor]

Feeling the OP. Farming Swift for the 5 star card (countless windows played), Terra (40~ish Dragon's Neck fights) and Gaius (1k+ matches won and a few Praetorium's thrown in) and I'm feeling some serious burn right now.

Swift can go to hell, seriously. Limited window + his broken deck + RNG bullshit (chaos rules) + more RNG bullshit (even getting the card to drop) = he can go die in a hole. I probably have 15 trap twins cards and 30 Ifrit cards.

[RobinRethiel]

People like to build things - and defend it. The new airship system with 3.0 may go into that direction. But also such things: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...d_cities_from/
Defending towns, places, together, build them, rebuild them, if they get destroyed, such things, Don't need to be super complex, but could be created in a way, that the players could create a massive outpost over time, if they build and defend it well. Could be source of many different rewards you could chose from. Just think of something like Revenant's toll, but build by players - and if you don't defend it well (with wall, NPCs, equipment, traps, and by yourself), it can be damaged or completely destroyed. Everyone can help, for minutes or hours, one time a week or every day, does not matter. Kind of a constant big struggle you can join or retreat from (of course not all time action, but a few times per day for 20-60 minutes, something like that).

People also like variety. Just give them different sources for the same thing. The dungeon grind for Zodiac was much more bearable, because you could do it with every class and not only with your relict class (after the light grind, I really did not want to play WHM anymore for some time...). Or tomestones. It helps a lot, that you got more than one way to gain them, combined with a daily bonus. A daily bonus also stretches the content. You can grind to get more and gain what you want faster, but you don't need it. Same with the personal chocobo. This would be a horrendous grind, but you can also just feed them and use the weekly bonus.

[Welsper59]

I never, in any way, said that. What I said was " I've never seen anyone complain about books, light grind, or mahatma anywhere near as much as Atma and dungeon 'atma'." I still hear complaints about those steps, but they pale in comparison to the complaints I hear on atma and dungeon grinds. I'm still very vocal about how much I LOATHE the Novus materia step. I think it's the worst designed aspect of this entire weapon and still get royally pissed anytime I think about that phase. But even then it was quantifiable in that I need 75 alexandrite and enough materia to complete the process. No RNG attached in any way. Even at its worst the only thing % based was the melding and it never got below 50%. Books were quantifiable. Get the currency, buy the book, do the requirements, rinse, repeat....TA-DAA Animus weapon acquired. Light grinding sucked, but it was quantified at 2000 light and you just needed to get the light on your own terms and at your own speed; same with Mahatma. Atma and dungeon grinds are just a crap shoot where you could be done in a day, a week, a month, or a year all depending on what the game decided to roll for you.

Pure RNG is pointless and does nothing more than to make a player upset. There has to be a middle ground between RNG and "Go collect me 8000 kobold ears", but as long as RNG only is being defended it won't happen.

I got what you meant, but you did say that. Otherwise, what purpose does your saying this serve when I literally asked if that person actually believed people enjoyed it?

Absolutely.

Clearly you were answering something... and given that a question was asked, kinda implies you were responding to that. Perhaps you were referring to the "more" part on my half? If so, then that's wrong. As I pointed out in an earlier post, it's not that people "enjoyed" it, it's that people found it "easier". The general populous enjoying the books was only in reference to the rest of the content being RNG. If it weren't for the RNG, you'd be looking at it like tomes/gil/MGP/etc... resources that, generally speaking, people don't find the methods to acquire "enjoyable". You can find something easy and not enjoy it afterall, as I'm sure you know as well.

The existence of RNG serves more than as an irritation. It serves a huge role in why people stay (and why some go). It serves the purpose of what makes an RPG, an RPG. It keeps the player attached to their rewards. It prevents the outcome that a player would feel like they completed a game quickly (something an MMORPG does not want to do... arguing otherwise is ridiculous). It brings about prestige, something that was/is a huge beneficial factor behind the success of MMORPGs. At some point though, it needs to be let up, and that's what we see happen for some content (like Atma). It's unfortunate that there are apparently 2 arguments going on regarding RNG. One saying that they're not asking for complete removal, and another that is implying it should be removed (because why would you keep something pointless around).

[Madigari]

True, but what's to keep them around once they get the thing they want?

Ideally, you'd think the thing that would keep them around is them having fun, not that they have content being held hostage behind luck and old instances/trials.

[Welsper59]

Ideally, you'd think the thing that would keep them around is them having fun, not that they have content being held hostage behind luck and old instances/trials.

That's a very generic reply. Care to explain how you would be having fun after you get what you want? Expect them to release new content the next day/week? Actually believe you'd be running the same content for no goal reward/result every day until the next patch update?

[RobinRethiel]

That's a very generic reply. Care to explain how you would be having fun after you get what you want? Expect them to release new content the next day/week? Actually believe you'd be running the same content for no goal reward/result until the next patch update every day?

As said before: look at all those games, where you can not level or gain money/equipment. You can play almost every game for money or other gains, but the majority is playing them for fun. Same with sports. Some are getting paid for it, but most people just do it for fun. There are much better and healthier sports than soccer and co, but people like to play soccer, it's fun. And so on.

[Fluffya]

Its easy to see how much ppl hate the current rng contents, just take a look at the Gold Saucer. You can count on your fingers the number of players who are participating in chocobos races or T.T. game.

The queue time for dungeons had increased and i just need to look at my FC rooster to see that less ppl are now online that before.

Players were anticipating alot of fun stuffs from the Gold Saucer while we wait for the expansion but we only got rng from it. No roller coaster shooter, no snowboarding, no skills game.

I agree that some rng are needed, but when it come that 100% of an update is rng, you cant expect players to stick around when you know it will be nerfed. Saving you a ton of boringness and annoyance.