4 guildleves in less than 1 hour=1/3rd of the way from 49-50?

[Wynn]

Alot of people are confusing the rate of sp with the ease of gaining it.

The core argument is that for no effort beyond accepting the leves and running to where they start he got 36k sp. He did 4 leves in an hour. that's 15 minutes a leve. The problem isn't that he got 36k sp... the problem is that any bot that can spam one input could do the same.

If you think it's ok that the casual content is so insultingly easy... what is wrong with you?

The fights didn't require skill, they didn't require ability, they just required he shoot things... usually only once.

To go on and on about how leves are fine the way they are really worries me. Because leves are not fine the way they are... and of course the answer isn't to remove them or to nerf the sp gain... the answer is to make it an acceptable challenge. Make people work for that sp. And no the work doesn't need to take more than half an hour. It doesn't need to be tedious (frankly, it already is pretty tedious.) No one, ever, should have the option of mindlessly killing super weak mobs for sp gain. Super weak mobs that give pretty damn decent sp, too.

That is where the complaint stems from... its not saying the sp needs to be nerfed... but the mobs need to be buffed. He was fighting mobs that were 15 ranks higher than he was. And killing many of them in one hit. I can't believe I have to keep saying this.

They don't need to change the sp returns at all... they do need to make a mob that is FIFTEEN RANKS HIGHER THAN YOU an acceptable challenge.

Leve mobs are just as difficult as non-leve mobs. So perhaps your argument is that the entire game is too easy. That might be a valid argument, but it is hardly a situation exclusive to leves.

[NoctisUmbra]

Alot of people are confusing the rate of sp with the ease of gaining it.

The core argument is that for no effort beyond accepting the leves and running to where they start he got 36k sp. He did 4 leves in an hour. that's 15 minutes a leve. The problem isn't that he got 36k sp... the problem is that any bot that can spam one input could do the same.

If you think it's ok that the casual content is so insultingly easy... what is wrong with you?

The fights didn't require skill, they didn't require ability, they just required he shoot things... usually only once.

To go on and on about how leves are fine the way they are really worries me. Because leves are not fine the way they are... and of course the answer isn't to remove them or to nerf the sp gain... the answer is to make it an acceptable challenge. Make people work for that sp. And no the work doesn't need to take more than half an hour. It doesn't need to be tedious (frankly, it already is pretty tedious.) No one, ever, should have the option of mindlessly killing super weak mobs for sp gain. Super weak mobs that give pretty damn decent sp, too.

That is where the complaint stems from... its not saying the sp needs to be nerfed... but the mobs need to be buffed. He was fighting mobs that were 15 ranks higher than he was. And killing many of them in one hit. I can't believe I have to keep saying this.

They don't need to change the sp returns at all... they do need to make a mob that is FIFTEEN RANKS HIGHER THAN YOU an acceptable challenge.

He did a rank 40 leve as a rank 49. No shit they are easy. This was already addressed.

I'm sure if there were r50 leves, they would be more challenging and would reward greater sp.

The sp earned would still not be something to write home about because its on a 36 hour cooldown.

[Ferth]

Leve mobs are just as difficult as non-leve mobs. So perhaps your argument is that the entire game is too easy. That might be a valid argument, but it is hardly a situation exclusive to leves.

I do happen to agree that across the board, mobs in leves and out of leves are too easy. But leve mobs are actually easier than non-leve mobs, they have lower hp, and often have lower atk and defense as well.

A few mobs retain brutal abilities that can throw you a curve ball during a leve... and some leves throw multiple mobs at you which can make a fight more challenging. But even those mobs have lower stats than their non-leve counterparts.

[Wynn]

The sp earned would still not be something to write home about because its on a 36 hour cooldown.

And this is the bottom line. Like Viion said, it ends up coming out to about 1k per hour. Far lower than you could get grinding in a grind party. The party doesn't even have to try or be efficient to beat those numbers. /thread

[Ferth]

He did a rank 40 leve as a rank 49. No shit they are easy. This was already addressed.

I'm sure if there were r50 leves, they would be more challenging and would reward greater sp.

The sp earned would still not be something to write home about because its on a 36 hour cooldown.

He did a rank 40 leve at 49... fighting mobs that were still 15 ranks higher than he was.

The suggested rank for the leve is pretty secondary.

Especially since I've made mention of doing leves at the suggested rank and the mobs were also ridiculously easy.

Even if you decry that he shouldn't be doing leves 9 ranks under him... how do you justify the returns he got from them?

Easy sp is easy. Yes... but it shouldn't be. I don't care if he was doing rank 1 leves... if he was getting 36k sp from doing them, something is wrong.

[Capita]

I do happen to agree that across the board, mobs in leves and out of leves are too easy. But leve mobs are actually easier than non-leve mobs, they have lower hp, and often have lower atk and defense as well.

That's because most normal mobs don't spawn in groups of 3-4 and chain aggro, which would make it impossible for any solo character outside of Archers and Mages, who can wreck most mobs in one combo and run away to reset the rest.

As a R31 Archer, I still can't do more than 3 stars on R30 leves without using this method. Those are R45 mobs. Not happening. You try soloing a R45 Imp with a R44 Elemental simultaneously spamming 400-600 damage abilities on you at R31, or try soloing a group of three R43 ants without kiting them and tell me it's easy.

The OP's rank in comparison to the ranks of the leves he's doing is skewing his perception of leve difficulty. Like multiple people have said, if he were to do actual R50 leves at 3+ stars, he wouldn't be complaining about how easy they are.

And why are you only harping on leves? Even a full party of mentally handicapped one-armed players could gain more than 1110 EXP/hr from grinding. Grinding/party play isn't difficult either. Tedious, maybe. But difficult? Not even close.

[Ferth]

Basically... I am seeing alot of people pointing out other issues with leves... I don't see how these issues make leves ok. On the whole it should be sending the message that leves have something innately wrong with them.

Before 1.18 leve mobs gave ridiculous amounts of bonus SP. So people found the leves worth doing, failed them on purpose so they could continue to exploit them every reset.

Now leves can still be exploited... but not quite as severely, and not quite as many people benefit from the exploit... oh yeah, plus they can only be exploited once every day and a half.

Really? An exploit is still an exploit even if you can only benefit from it twice in a three day period.

All the statements saying leves are fine the way they are annoy me because it's people essentially saying "We don't want you to provide us with fun, engaging content that has adequate rewards for the time and effort involved. We'd much rather get 2-5k sp for slaughtering easy mobs every couple of days."

Even if you go out of your way to make leves more challenging, you don't have to. The challenge from a leve should not be an option. At the base difficulty it should either provide challenging content, or not provide substantial rewards.

I'm in the middle of writing up a proposal for a change to how guildleves function. I'd absolutely love everyone's feedback if they willing to read it.

I know I can be a bit... fervent... But really, I'd like the main reason people play the game to be because they enjoy the act of playing.

Gameplay should be engaging, challenging and fun... and right now, you can totally breeze through leves and still get an appreciable reward.

[Capita]

All the statements saying leves are fine the way they are annoy me because it's people essentially saying "We don't want you to provide us with fun, engaging content that has adequate rewards for the time and effort involved. We'd much rather get 2-5k sp for slaughtering easy mobs every couple of days."

Good for you. You annoy us too with your, "My ideas are right and yours are wrong because you disagree with me" BS. You don't know what's going on in our minds, so why would you try to push your ideas onto ours?

I know I can be a bit... fervent... But really, I'd like the main reason people play the game to be because they enjoy the act of playing.

Oh, hey, I hear you know what everyone's idea of having fun is, amirite?

Gameplay should be engaging, challenging and fun... and right now, you can totally breeze through leves and still get an appreciable reward

Yet this has nothing to do with leves. Leves may not be fun or challenging, but grinding isn't either. Being forced to party in order to progress isn't fun either for those of us who actually have other things to do outside of the game. Now, I'm sure some people are gonna be like, "If you don't have time for the game, why play it?"

There's a simple answer to that. I make time for the game because I enjoy it, but not to the degree some people -- who skip work, school, friends, and/or family to play -- might do. It's a game, not my life. Fun to me is being able to feel like I've progressed with what time I put in, instead of feeling forced to play just to have any sense of progression at all.

I love a good challenge. Challenging content with fun rewards is important to me. Quests, dungeons, PVP, etc. sure. But simply making something trivial like leveling harder for the simple sake of making it harder is just tedious in my eyes.

[Ferth]

I love a good challenge. Challenging content with fun rewards is important to me. Quests, dungeons, PVP, etc. sure. But simply making something trivial like leveling harder for the simple sake of making it harder is just tedious in my eyes.

So everything should be retardedly easy?

They can add difficulty without making it tedious.

And no I don't claim to know what everyone finds enjoyable.

But If you don't find engaging and challenging gameplay enjoyable go play farmville.

[Wynn]

So everything should be retardedly easy?

They can add difficulty without making it tedious.

And no I don't claim to know what everyone finds enjoyable.

But If you don't find engaging and challenging gameplay enjoyable go play farmville.

Considering that you are advocating change to a game that people are saying they enjoy, perhaps you should be the one looking to play something else?