Pro tip: Tell me you're new to a dungeon /rant

[MeiUshu]

Asking is never wrong, but waiting for the answer, or considering that more then not if you dare say you are new, people just leave, and if you are a dps you are not going to take the risk to see the tank or healer leave the party or both andy ou are stuck then waiting for another hour or two.

For speedruns, who can say with certainty when met with perfect strangers of all horizons if said person is in a position to handle a speedrun? of course there are exceptions...but mostly saying yes or no...is very difficult.


Besides not all speak english or understands it.

Mei

[AdamFyi]

Snip

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm just pointing out that the OP does make some valid points about his end of the argument and that communication from both parties should always be taken into consideration.

Then again, the OP did ask them if they were new. He did kind of say that he wouldn't mind slowing down for the new players if they spoke up. Regardless, most prefer to get through trash as fast as possible, then when attempting the boss, they have someone explain the mechanics to them. Though, I have to agree with you about the stoneskin bit. It's pretty annoying when I can't even get buffs up. I don't mind as much since I can adjust accordingly. There is no use slowing down the run even more than not even trying.

Anyway, nobody should be afraid to speak up, and nobody should be put into that kind of situation where they might get slapped on the wrist for doing such. Luckily most players I've met are pretty friendly.

[NyarukoW]

...
So, as a tank in the early 50s dungeons, go fast if you can, but if you die, don't say stuff like "omg, where were the heals?" or "I used CDs, wtf" or "wtf dps" or anything like that. It serves no purpose, creates a hostile environment, and slows everything down while people type angry responses. Just go "haha, sry, I'll take it slower" or "ah well, was worth a shot!" or "my bad, let's do this" or something that doesn't assign blame to other people.
....

If players went this is attitude and don't mond the wipes and adjust accordingly there is no issue. Do NOT assign the blame or impose the responsbility to the new/newer players to say they are new.

[Firepower]

I agree with the OP's sentiment about silent newcomers, if a new person in the dungeon is a key job such as healer or tank they need to speak up before we get to the boss. There could be key elements involved in the dungeon, such as kiting adds, in/out mechanics on Chimera in Cutters cry, staying in the purple in DD, eating berries in AV etc.. The thing I hate most is someone who we know is new because we got the message says nothing when asked, doesn't ask for information on the boss, gets hit by everything coming dies and then wipes us because they were our healer or tank, normally if they are DPS it isn't a major problem.

People are getting frustrated because when working on relics you have to constantly rerun stupid dungeons over and over for zodiac drops and animus books and especially for the zodiac part it is completely based on RNG, so when you have run the dungeon 20 times in the last few days alone the last thing you need is someone who won't speak up and wants to make your dungeon run take 3 times longer.

[NyarukoW]

...
People are getting frustrated because when working on relics you have to constantly rerun ....

The frustration can be real and the RNG does NOT help, but to scapegoat the new/newer players is just not right. People should communicate but new/newer players may have trouble communicating or do NOT know how to communicate or does not understand the question or just does NOT know why they need to communicate. Likely they won't see the forums here and understand why that communication is necessary, and it is compounded by fear of people leaving as many have experienced exactly that.

Just like you can not push a string, you can not force the new/newer player to magically know how, when, and what to communicate, but you can as the more experienced player can observe and anticipate and make adjustment and accommodate. The missing level-sync and the bonus are all warnings to tip you off to dial-in and observe and be more vigilant and ready with larger margins of error.

So as a healer I will overheal, regen, medica 2 etc. more, and as a tank I will pull smaller groups. And as dps you may need to hold back some dps to not pull aggro off the newer tank, or keep swift cast res ready or help heal. You will need to trade-in some top speed for more safety, and be happy with any efficiency improvements you get given the hand your are dealt. And don't blame the new/newer players for not knowing what they don't know.

[Ghishlain]

It's actually funny, I ran into the new player bonus three times in a row last night while grinding for my Zodiac items.

(1) Hullbreaker Island, PLD was new, said out right he was new, everyone was happy and we progressed. We gave him a few pointers with the path, what to kill, how to avoid a certain set of mobs, etc. Told the PLD to flash more often because at this gear level, most players don't hold back any more and it's better to be inefficient and hold hate via spam versus losing hate and having things run amok. Things progressed well though at one point the BRD pulled "extra" (2nd set of Water Elementals before final boss) which I had to handle as a healer (our BLM nearly died). Overall, went well.

(2) Hullbreaker Island again, new DRG, didn't say a word about being new but we progressed as mostly normal. I gave a few pointers on bosses then found out later that the two DPS came together and were voice chatting it up (DRG made comment about those damn bubbles and the other DPS commented about laughing his ass off in voice chat with the DRG and apparently how he didn't remember the fight properly. Just kinda left it at that.

(3) Qarn HM, new player bonus comes up again, and once again gave pointers when we hit the bosses. Got to boss #2 then the tank (who was taking it at the normal pace) told me that the three were on voice chat together. So, I left the explanations to itself and we cleared no issue.

I find it funny how despite having new player bonuses all three times, we were able to progress without incident and issue. In fact, out all the Zodiac I've been farming for the last few weeks, I can safely say I've had 50% new player bonus sold message. I can also safely say that 95% of those new player runs had no issues despite very little being said. In essence, this i what I want to impart:

To the anti-speed runner / new player white knights
Your job isn't to babysit the new players. Your job is to GUIDE the new players. We're all (mostly) big boys and girls here. We can handle directions, it just might a bit sloppy on our first run.

Intentionally sabotaging runs for your own morale code doesn't prove anything. You don't fix a wrong with another wrong. To quote: "An eye for an eye makes the world go blind". If a silent tank goes off running, chances are those tanks know what they're doing (mostly) and have given a quick gauge of the situation. You can generally tell how potent a party group is based on (1) their HP and (2) their class. Most tanks understand this, and though some tanks are better than others, the vast majority of tanks will know "when to stop".

To all the speed run enthusiasts
As others have pointed out, a quick four to five lines of text per boss isn't going to hamper anything, and may save you three to ten minutes of wasted fighting and travel time (Killing the Flambeau in Copperbell HM comes to mind). Most new players should understand what a "speed run" is, and know how to handle it, but may need some specific instruction to "go here" at certain points that isn't obvious.

Doing this will save frustration down the line. If they tell you "we got this", then, well, you're in the clear. Not all "new players" will be "new", they may be there with a friend, they may have seen a guide, they may be an alt, etc, but a quick few lines won't hurt anyone's ego. Just be polite, tell them to watch for X, Y, and Z, and go nuts on the boss.

---

Both sides of the debate here are really wrong if they feel they can "impose" themselves upon the other group. We are a group of players that play at varying skill levels and have varying attitudes. Just be adaptable and maintain a morale high ground, and that'll distinguish you from the idiots and/or trolls that may be part of your group (and you will run into then, deal with them appropriately, and not as a jerk)

[Firepower]

It's not scapegoating new players, it's new players that refuse to communicate before charging into a boss or pull they have no clue what to do with.

Anyone should have learned this by the time they are level 20 after completing sastasha, copperbell, tam tara they could easily see that is how dungeons work with bosses and single enemies behind these purple lines normally have something different about them, at level 44+ there is no excuse since by that time if you have never even communicated before there is a problem, not to mention I'm pretty sure on some quests between 1-50 you will have had to type something in /say to do a quest to a npc.

At level 44+ you should know
How to communicate: use software keyboard (ps3/4) or normal keyboard (ps3/4/pc)
When to communicate: start of dungeon, purple lines before bosses where most people stand and wait.
What to communicate: I'm new, any help, if you really struggle use the auto translate (please assist) (whats the battle plan?)

I cannot clear the dungeon for them myself, especially if they are a tank or healer. My issue is not with them being new nor is it to scapegoat them but to point out that very early in the game people should already know some simple etiquette with running dungeons. It helps for the new person to identify themselves as some jobs have different things to do in different fights, its pointless explaining a boss fight from a tanks perspective (what to stun etc..) when the new person is a healer and needs to know about using esuna on a certain debuff

[AskaRay]

words

I remember when I began, I was even terrified to use the DF by myself, let alone actually talk to people.. (since FFXIV was my first mmo in years, not to mention I don't really like talking to people). MOST of the time I thought the New Player Notification would be enough to actually let people know I was new at this (obviously I figured out the truth fast). I mean, I would always talk to others if they talked to me and asked if I was new, but I never really initiated conversations (I still don't, I don't like to).

Either way I now always try to be nice to new people, maybe they also have some anxiety about playing with strangers.. I mean, even if you asked them "are you new" and they didn't respond, I'm not immediately like "okay whatever screw you"... that's a toxic way to think and just not enjoyable in the end.

[NyarukoW]

....
Your job isn't to babysit the new players. ......

Nobody is baby sitting the new players. People need to stop abusing the new players with tactics like leaving when people say they are new and demanding that htey answer some question they may not understand or have read.

Intentionally sabotaging runs ....

It is not sabotaging runs to sacrifice some speed for reduced risk so you get the clear without a wipe. Sometimes that price has to be paid with the corpse of the silent speed runner trying to force speed run without communications.

Most new players should understand what a "speed run" is, and know how to handle it, ...

Even experienced players seeing a new dungeon does not know how to properly do it much less speed run it. Just look back a bit an see all those that whined about Captain Madison in Sastasha HM. Most new/newer player do not know what is a speed run nor know how to handle a speed run. And they certainly wouldn't know how to handle the chaos when there is no useful or functional communication.

....
At level 44+ you should know
How to communicate: use software keyboard (ps3/4) or normal keyboard (ps3/4/pc)
When to communicate: start of dungeon, purple lines before bosses where most people stand and wait.
What to communicate: I'm new, any help, if you really struggle use the auto translate (please assist) (whats the battle plan?)
...

This is an arbitary criteria with no means to enforce it. If it was up to me I think people should learn to communicate in Sastasha from the start, but you can't force people to communicate, get a keyboard, or do anything specific to facilitate communication. The people you are trying to reach which this thread, or that post, probably isn't even going to get read by them. This kind of 1-way failed communication isn't going to solve any problems. So you need to start from the standpoint of what to do and what to expect in the context of failed communication. Do not treat silence as agreement to speed run.

....
Both sides of the debate here are really wrong if they feel they can "impose" themselves upon the other group.

That is false equivalence. The speed runner are the only ones trying to impose this regime on others. The new/newer players don't even know what they can or can not do to impose anything on anyone. The anti-speed run people can not stop the silent speed runner from running off and aggro-ing everything and wiping everyone and then turn around and cuss at everyone else.

Fundamentally communication takes time and it is the anti-thesis of what the speed runner wants. The pure speed runner would insist that any communication is time added to the run so it is no longer a speed run and that time spent communicating is sabotaging their speed run. But there is no way a new/newer or even experienced can be a mind reader as to where or what the pull is going to do, where stuff is going to be positioned and communication failure is going to be cause of wipes. The pure speed runner just want it all to magically happen for them on the DF and that is just wishful thinking. Demand that new players respond to some question is just smoke and mirrors to distract from that simple reality.

[Ghishlain]

~ Snip ~

We have had many verbal altercations in the past on these forums. I already know there's no point to talk to you as you already have your opinion and will straw man the crap out of every argument coming your way, so there's nothing to say to you anymore in that respect. I've tried to reason with you on several occasions and it's been all for naught. You can impose your will by having said tanks dead body on the ground to prove a point, but that just proves you're as much of a monster as everyone else who forces speed running upon an a group (in fact, I would argue you are more of a monster because at least a speed runner isn't trying to intentionally sabotage their group).

All I have to say is this:

For those unfamiliar with Harrison Bergeron, it was a literary dystopian piece written in the 1960's about how America had achieved "complete equality". They did this by reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator via handicaps (they gave you weighted shoes so you couldn't move as fast, a crown that zapped your brain so you would lose your train of thought, etc).

This is what you want in this game, NyarukoW. While I can support your desire to make the game a better place for everyone, I cannot support your massive drive to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator.

We're all human beings. We CANNOT account for every single possible variable that MAY occur in a dungeon and our interactions with each other. We can only do our best, and play with the hand we are given. Some people deal with it better than others, but the most important thing we can do is try to play nice in the sandbox and be empathetic to each other, as that will make the environment overall more positive.