So I was kicked from Halatali today

[Cynfael]

@Cynfael: I think your example is an excellent point in how situations vary per person. The healer in your group was definitely kick-worthy as he was not even fulfilling his most basic role. In my scenario, however, players wanted MORE than the basic role. SO while it might have been nice for me to DPS, I was not causing wipes by not doing so (as he would have been doing had new players been present). That being said, in my own case, the noob in the group is always going to be either the tank or the DPS, which only further justifies my focusing on healing rather than DPS'ing. A healer that won't heal properly means a kick. A tank that won't keep the adds off his team means either a kick or my excessive healing, which as you experienced in the case of your bad healer, can indeed be an issue in regards to bad tanks and DPS.

Either way, a player that is doing their job and who is not the cause of a wipe shouldn't take crap from people. There are very clear places where DPS from a healer is a required job (adds in the Firemane fight, Odin burn phase at the end), but mid-way between bosses in Halatali is not one of them. DPS in those areas is just icing on your cake, and anybody worth their salt doesn't NEED the icing, although it's nice when people provide it.

I still think that it was out of line to kick you given what you shared about your situation. The majority of my comments about healers contributing to party DPS are aimed squarely at players who choose to be obstructive out of sheer laziness or because they believe that their role entitles them to doing less "work".

The main point where I think we differ is that I believe that healer DPS is compulsory rather than icing, at least where the player is capable and not otherwise unable to provide it due to strict healing requirements. Providing DPS to a party is part of your basic role even if it does admittedly take a backseat to your primary responsibility of healing.

[KisaiTenshi]

I still think that it was out of line to kick you given what you shared about your situation. The majority of my comments about healers contributing to party DPS are aimed squarely at players who choose to be obstructive out of sheer laziness or because they believe that their role entitles them to doing less "work".

The main point where I think we differ is that I believe that healer DPS is compulsory rather than icing, at least where the player is capable and not otherwise unable to provide it due to strict healing requirements. Providing DPS to a party is part of your basic role even if it does admittedly take a backseat to your primary responsibility of healing.

It's by no means compulsory otherwise the dungeons would be designed harder and grindier. I keep telling you guys this, that's why FFXIV is the way it is and not a RNG-Damage-Spam zerg-fest. There are people in this thread who think just because a healer isn't healing, they should be damage spamming. It's not the healers role to take up the slack of the DPS.

In the low-level dungeons it feels agonizingly slow to do when the tank is ill-equipped and basically loses half it's HP on every hit. That is reality. If you luck out and get an overgeared tank, they may actually last the 5 seconds required to switch in and out of Cleric stance. Otherwise it's entirely pointless for the healer to DPS because the time spent waiting results in weak heals and slow damage. In Halitali, you know the tank will last longer without heals if you get rid of the adds, which you can do faster than the melee DPS.

It's all situational, but a healer is under no obligation to "help DPS" otherwise the dungeon design would enable it. The only places in any dungeon where the Healer could "help" DPS are when the Boss is invulnerable, and the adds do not attack the players even when they have hate. A healer doesn't need to make up for weak DPS on trash mobs. Figure out if the Tank will last 10 seconds without a heal and then decide if it's worth risking the tank die just to fire off two DPS skills in that 5 seconds. If you know the battle, then you know the answer. Most low-level DF queues you can expect one player to be a write-off, just hope it's not the tank.

[Cynfael]

snip.

- Dungeon design enables healers to DPS just fine, as do healer mechanics.

- Why would you ever suffer weak heals? The whole point of stance-dancing is to DPS while you do not need to heal, while you can maintain heals indirectly (e.g. ongoing HoTs or fairy Embrace), or when you're prepared to use Lustrate or Benediction.

- The only time you really risk a tank's life by disabling your heals is when you do not properly learn the fight. Even in dungeons it's the same mobs with the same AI every time; no trash mob is going to bust out a personal LB as soon as it sees you go CS. It's ridiculous to suggest that "keep tank safe" and "add DPS" are mutually exclusive actions.

- It's never about picking up slack for weak DPS; it's about playing well and helping your fellow players achieve objectives. If standing around waiting for people to need healing before you lift a finger is fun for you, then I can't help. Sadly we don't complete duties by blowing mobs up with heals, but with DPS; what makes healers so special that they should be the only role in the game not to contribute as they are able?