Low probabilities of Triple Triad drops, big fish, etc. Grinds becoming unreal.

[Purrfectstorm]

Exactly this. But things won't ever change, because the majority people have fooled themselves into thinking MMOs shouldn't be enjoyable, just a thing you become addicted to

On this note, I've been seriously considering the idea that I'm addicted to FFXIV. I know people throw out the word "addicted" all the time to mean "I really, really like something" but in this case, I mean it literally. On patch day, I played for 17 hours straight and just felt terrible. My body hurt, I didn't eat or sleep right, nor have enough to drink. I feel compelled to do dailies/weeklies because of "efficiency" and I kill myself to do every stupid grind SE puts in front of me. I don't even feel like a person sometimes, just a rat pressing a button stimulating the pleasure center of my brain over and over until I die.

I've been doing some research on addiction lately and it seems like nearly any kind of addiction causes actual physiological changes in the brain. I feel like something like this has happened to me when I think about all the hours doing something unfun for some reward. Then I get the reward and it's like ding, ding, pleasure center lights up. It's even killed my enjoyment of other things. The good news is that I've read that life and your enjoyment of other activities can return after a time if you give up your addiction. Today I saw a professional about this and talking about my gaming habits made me admit what I've already known for a while, I have a problem.

I think I'm probably going to quit FFXIV and try to get well again. I'm not sure I can simply cut back as I've tried that before and end up back in the exact same boat. On the other hand, it's so difficult when I think about my FC and all my online friends and all the things I'll be missing, plus all the time I've put in. I guess it wouldn't be an addiction if quitting was easy

I think MMOs can be designed in a way that is less addictive (less emphasis on daily/weekly content, longer relevancy of gear, more reasonable "grinds") but sadly I think that addicted players are worth big bucks to developers.

[XiXiQ]

but sadly I think that addicted players are worth big bucks to developers.

and also sadly, I suspect those angry "Oh! You want everything handed to you with no work!" people are the real addicts. In actuality, the only people doing no "work" are the few who happen to get lucky and only need to do the content once or a handful of times. Only an addict would think it's just fine to do the same content 100+ times for a CHANCE of being rewarded. Desynth the the worst possible example of this I have ever seen. Grind the mats, grind the crafts to hand in... for a very low chance at a demi/mc.

Einstein had it spot on. The very definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I am at the stage now when I expect nothing, and am quite right on this outcome 99+% of the time.


Go out into the world and enjoy Good luck to you.

[Izsha]

Setting goals and working towards them is fun for many people. I don't want to play a game with no grinding because there is no sense of accomplishment. It is the constantly improving through another piece of gear. 50 more tomes towards that goal. 100 lights closer. 1 atma closer. Getting that 30th card. Working towards specific, tangible goals and tracking you personal progess every day towards it is immensely satisfying for many people. Finally achieving it is the finishing touch.

If people everywhere REALLY hated grinds as much as complaint threads sound like the entire mmo genre would never have existed. Achievements wouldn't be part of EVERY game now. Games wouldn't have multiple endings (who grinds an entire game for 1 30 sec cut scene?). Among 1000 other examples.

People like grinds as a whole. It's become only more pervasive than ever. Old games of walk to the right for 10 levels have died and been replaced by a hundred versions of repeating tasks and rng. If people truly hated it that much it wouldnt sell and wouldn't have expanded into every genre of game. Time has given grinds fresh coats of paint over the years, but it's all just grinds when you get down to it.

Gamers started to demand and expect more and more replay value. So designers gave it to them, but at a certain point they can't just keep designing more and more crap so they started recycling it. Multiple endings. Different difficulty settings. Unlock able content. Costume changes. Achievements. Buying I'm game art galleries with tokens you earn.....by grinding the game.

The masses don't hate grinds. They beg for them and have been for decades.

[LunaHoshino]

There's a very simple solution if you're getting sick of grinding for something: take a break and go do something else for a while. It took me about 75 runs of Ifrit HM to get the spear from it, but I didn't do those all at once or even in the span of a few days. I'd do maybe 4 or 5 runs a day and that was it and then I'd go do something else in the game. All told, it took a little over two weeks to finally get the spear, but it was worth it because doing it that way kept me from smashing my face against that fight over and over again until I got frustrated. Pacing yourself is key here.

[Moqi]

Games wouldn't have multiple endings (who grinds an entire game for 1 30 sec cut scene?)

That's not the same thing at all.

[DemonFury]

theres a guy right now whos beaten imperial 500+ times and still hasnt gotten gaius.

problem is you can get gaius through other means such as preatorium boss drop so its not like he had to stand there and win all those matches just to try to get giaus, and on teh other hand he did not come out of it empty handed i calculated you can use that same guy to farm mgp at estimating you win 8/10 games 6.5k - 7.5k mgp per hour off of that very npc and the 350 cards that can be exchanged for mgp on top of it all which at its lowest he gets 3500 from those but lets calculate 500 win its 30 mgp per hand you lose so you win 90 mgp per hand which comes out to 45k mgp won from the npc plus teh card turn ins about on average 50k mgp so again its not like he did not have any choices and he did not walk away with nothing.

[Izsha]

That's not the same thing at all.

It is the same thing. It's repeating content you've already done because there's a carrot at the end. There's no mystery leveling up and fighting the same bosses over again to get that 30 sec CG. Play through all the story 14 quests a 2nd time, do all the wine and cheese fetching, kill the story primals, cue for dungeons, then you can get a cutscene where you have to actually kill thancred during the fight with lahabreia! TOTALY NOT GRINDING GUYS. That's what grinding is to a T.

Even if your right, what about everything else I said?

Plucking single lines instead of addressing the argument. Never change official forums.

[Moqi]

Everything else is based on that sentence, there is no need to quote the whole post.

Alternate endings don't require you to run the same content dozens, if not hundreds of times like ffxiv wants you to, it's a laughable comparison. You're a troll.

[Izsha]

Repeating many hours of fetch quests (repeating doing the story in its entirety) would be pretty grindy to most because it involves hours and hours of doing what you already did and a lot of people find fetch quests as boring. How many times do you have to repeat something before it's a grind? 2x? 50x? The length of time to complete 1 repetition apparently doesn't matter to you. Bet you I can grind 500 npc card fights for 1 dinky card faster than you can repeat story from 1 to praetorium for a dinky cut scene. Which is more of a grind? Hours of fetch quests or playing a fun little mini game.

Protip: the answer is arbitrary. When an activity is 'boring' (opinion) it's a terrible grind. When an activity is 'fun' (opinion) it's masterfully done content.

You are drawing arbitrary lines in what is a grind and what isn't based on what is personally fun for you. But to accept that, you must also accept that other people find activities that are boring grinds for you as fun. They are all grinds, but people only bring up the negative meaning of grind when it doesn't suit their fancy. One person's grind is another's masterfully created content. But they are ALL grinds because developers need players to repeat content because the simple fact that developing content takes longer than playing it. The only solution is to replay it until more is created.

[Aeyis]

I spent 3 days playing the imperial guy in south mor dhona trying to get a giaus card and i did finally get it but you do not hear me in here complaining about how long it took.. so like i said if you cannot handle a grind and your one of those people who think things should just be handed to you without any work at all then please go somewhere else we have enough issues already without having to put up with yours.

Bad example. The Gaius card (from the NPC) has the least RNG involved with it out of all 5 (and even 4 star) cards. And the most actual grind involved.

nothing like some of teh original mmos like say RO which did not drop money in any way shape or form you had to gather items sell them or npc them to get your money and save it all i ever see in new mmos is how people think that this stuff shoudl just be handed to them without any real work ...

Another bad example. In Ragnarok Online the system used % chance on all of its item drops, not RNG.
If a drop had a listed 5% chance to drop, you would actually receive closer and closer towards that 5% the more mobs you killed. And with as high as a 5% chance you would reach that accuracy pretty fast.
You grinded a mob that could drop Elu at a 5% chance? Well, you kill 300 and you would have 6~ with a very low SD (standard deviation).

Btw, come talk to me about real work when you've soloed Niff2 as a level 67 hunter all the way to 99. Before you could even ascend in the game.
If you are going to be condenscending, do it better. Like me.