Low probabilities of Triple Triad drops, big fish, etc. Grinds becoming unreal.

[VynceNiore]

Go play WoW, you don't gotta work hard for shit in that game anymore.

[Kinkoz]

Oh hey yet another copy pasted reply that did not read the posts in said thread.
For you, I think my signature might apply.

Cool story, bro.

[Alberel]

Seems my post on Smart RNG was missed so I'm posting it again as it is the solution to this issue. Every failed chance at a drop should increase the odds the next time you try for the same drop and resets when you get it.

If you have a 1% drop chance, every failed attempt increases the odds by a further 0.5%. After roughly 100 failed attempts (the point at which in a larger sample size you should have seen the drop) you'll now have a roughly 50% chance of getting it. Ultimately you'd get a 100% chance at the drop at 200 attempts, which is twice the average for obtaining that drop. This would keep the ultimate drop rate within the intended range but would prevent any extreme outliers on the unlucky end of the spectrum. There is no downside to doing this. Plenty of other games already use this system and it works perfectly. Smart RNG is 'more fun' than regular RNG because it guarantees you can't be so insanely unlucky that you can never progress.

Why more games don't use it I honestly have no idea...

[Aeyis]

Literally the entire genre of MMOs begs to differ. WoW had considerably worse RNG in some instances and it was massively more popular. Talking out of your rear or misinformed.

Indeed. Asian mmos have always been known for a massive amount of grinding required. Not for having horrible RNG.
WoW on the other hand had very little grind, even in its earlier days; but it had very horrible RNG.

[Izsha]

Indeed. Asian mmos have always been known for a massive amount of grinding required. Not for having horrible RNG.
WoW on the other hand had very little grind, even in its earlier days; but it had very horrible RNG.

Grind is rng. They are 2 options that accomplish the same task. Quota system vs rng. Both require you to repeat something over and over. Quota says do something 10 times. Rng says 10% success rate. End result is player base as a whole spends X time (dev decided pacing) completing said content. Card farming I'd a grind (rng). Light farming is a grind (quota). They are synonymous.

Point in fact. Rag online. Leveling was giant grindy exp quota. Droprates in fractions of a %. Asian mmos aren't devoid of rng, just as westerns aren't devoid of quotas. You ever see achievement lists? Western games created a NEW approach to quota grinding.

Every mmo has both and both methods are functionally identical. The difference is how the brain interprets them. Rng triggers skinner box (this time I'll get it! Slot machine syndrome) to psychologically push you on. The quota system triggers constant tangible progress and our brains love incremental development. Change you can see.

Bot methods are effective and both methods are better liked by some over others. But the end result is the same in all cases.

[BreathlessTao]

My point is that mmos are designed intentionally to take time to complete objectives, and the pacing is set by devs. in a broad sense the pacing for content is broken into 2 categories. How often you can complete content and how often you get rewarded (latter sub divided into rng or a checklist.) Those are the 2 levers devs have to tweak content pacing. I'm not advocating a specific pacing, just that you don't just get to pull 1 lever without the other moving. If you want higher droprates, there's going to be more restrictions. Note the time window npcs have higher droprates than all day npcs.

The devs have chosen their pacing based on their update cycle and relevancy of content (nerf old content rates like atma later etc).

There's the issue. Unless we're not aware of the fact that the pacing / update cycle is forced on them... Yes, they set it themselves. And on one hand, compared with some other games of the same genre, it's awesome that we get so much new (or "new" anyway) content so often. But on the other? Am I the only one sick and tired of the "we can't do this because we're focusing on that" and "the dev team is very small" excuses? Okay, maybe not 100% excuses, they can safely be assumed to be true, but nevertheless. So many ideas - heck, so many issues just get swept under the rug with these lines, because they "have" to stick to their own pacing and update schedules.

While at the same time, consider this (and I'm not saying it's 100% accurate either, but a perspective nevertheless):

Except the part of guranteed time sinks; such as the minimum 800 hours of minigame time(unless you score well on crackpots) for your first mil[do the math - it's basic]. Which for the casual person is months. The minimum 80 hours to finish your first relic ; once again do the basic math assuming generic times per fate and drop rate - queue times as a DPS for dungons etc etc. Ignoring the original grind to 50. Ignoring the 12 or so hours of just cutscene time that's in the game.

A 'casual' player I would say is someone that logs 2-4 hours 3 or so days a week. So let's say on average 10 hours a week - 40 hours a month. It would take them 2 months of all their login time to just complete their first relic to completion.

To a new player, every content is relevant. Obviously, not only because they want to, but because (in a way) they have to do it all. Talk about being overwhelmed when they can't even finish content from, say, patch 2.2, and there's already another batch of new stuff to do - on top of what 2.3, 2.4, 2.5 brought to the table? You don't even have to be an entirely new player and you still can easily have "leftovers" from previous patches that you couldn't yet complete for whatever reason. (Re: grinding for weeks or even months for a Novus when you can easily get an equivalent with a few dungeon runs in a week - and let's not even talk about moving on from Novus; yes, it's optional, but that doesn't mean some people wouldn't like to actually do it without feeling frustrated/meaningless while getting there, remember, it's a game you should have fun with.)

And once more it has to be mentioned: Yoshi & co. themselves have reasoned the way things are were, by now, the way they are were, because they wanted to make the game as casual-friendly as possible. That has gone down the drain quite a while ago. Because their team is too small, yet they "have" to stick to their update cycles because for some inexplicable reason, they feel they need to cater specially to that thin top layer of players that clocks in 4-8 hours of playtime at least 4 days a week and burn through everything and then complain they have nothing to do. As if they had no lives, or as if there was nothing outside of FFXIV to occupy themselves with - heck, I do love this game myself, but that doesn't mean this is the only one I play, I dunno, am I alone with that?? Yet, at the same time, in many aspects they're still holding our hands quite much and quite tightly, which again obviously not liked by older players by now, and of course all the more noticeable when in direct contrast of some other things in the game.

I have said this earlier, not once either, but for just one "cycle", maybe slowing down wouldn't hurt? Maybe it could help ease up on these ridiculous RNG-based grinds that are painfully obviously artificial walls for so many of us? Maybe it could contribute to certain issues getting fixed (completely random example, but Miqo'te tail clipping, which always gets shunned despite the whole race being implemented by the devs themselves - and despite the fact that the longer it's dragged out, the more stuff they'd have to eventually redesign if they ever got to it)? It's a weird and somewhat vicious cycle. And as someone already mentioned here: it is gonna cave in sooner or later. Personally, if there's one thing I hope for in Heavensward, it's exactly this: the narrowminded verticality to change into at least a little bit more horizontal.



DEAR SE, FOR THE LOVE OF THE TWELVE, DO AWAY WITH THIS GODSDAMNED STUPID CHARACTER LIMIT.

[Velhart]

I still find it funny that people can't tell the difference between hard work and rolling a dice.

Simply put, the effort/luck ratio is greatly imbalanced. Both do have to exist to make a working system, but SE believes the best way to keep the content relevant is by going to certain extremes on the luck factor. The effort to obtain something should be equal among everyone. That is why I don't mind the light grinding from Novus > Nexus and Zodiac > Zeta. At least everyone has to earn the same amount of lights to progress to the next stage. You can't convince me it does not bother you when you are out doing FATE's for atma all day non-stop, and then someone joins you, gets it the first FATE, and moves on. It is understandable that grinds are a thing for the relic quest since it is mostly casual content, but there should be a set goal to work towards, not complete something then cross your fingers.

People need to feel like they are progressing to keep the momentum and interest in the game going. When you put systems like Atma or cards that never drop in battle content, people start losing interest and in extreme cases, quit the game all together. I know people who have quit Triple Triad already because the RNG is unreal to obtain cards. Not so much the difficulty in getting it as it is more of a bother that someone gets a card on the first try, and you are doing days worth of that content to get one just to end with nothing. It is understandable why people rage and leave the game alone when things like that happen.

Honestly, cards should of not been involved with battle content in the first place and stuck with NPC's. It is a lame and convenient excuse for SE to get people to venture into old content again.

[FranSeara]

We agree again Tiggy!! Yeap, you may have to work for things in this game. Luckly, the devs have made MOST things uneeded to enjoy MOST of the game.
Good Day!

[Velhart]

We agree again Tiggy!! Yeap, you may have to work for things in this game. Luckly, the devs have made MOST things uneeded to enjoy MOST of the game.
Good Day!

So is it hard work when you go in, get a card on your first run, then leave while other people spent days worth trying to get it?

[FranSeara]

I've never once farmed for cards but I have ALL the primals so far. Thanks relic quest!!