Cerberus DPS Method - It Needs To Be Said. . .

[Sousoulsu]

I can't say it enough: Just because it's "faster" (it's NOT) doesn't mean it's better.

A:Adds, B:Belly, C:Chains. Works.
All DPS into Belly; Tanks hold and fight adds; Chains get handled by anybody. Also works.
Which method you use does not matter, because the content is not tuned tightly.

That said, this sentiment of yours that I've quoted makes sense with your opposition to speedrunning (voiced less eloquently) in another topic.
I will restate what I said to you there, here: Most players care about efficiency. They will almost always follow the path of least resistance, even if it is not the most fun, because that's how humans solve problems.
If it's faster and they can do more things in less time, they will tend to do it.

You are in a minority when you say that speed/efficiency is not better. Being in the minority, you should try forming your own DF groups for your own strats in WoD, if it really bothers you so much. ^w^

[FranSeara]

I've yet to see the "ALL Dps" Method work. What I've seen happens is; ALL
the Dps end up dead then its a WIPE. This method needs to be forgotten about, since it saves 0 time and is very risky.
"Please think of the repair bills."

[Zedd702]

You are in a minority when you say that speed/efficiency is not better. Being in the minority, you should try forming your own DF groups for your own strats in WoD, if it really bothers you so much. ^w^

No ma'am... I like how people come up with this slew of garbage and assuming that people who don't want to speed run all the time are in the minority based on their own personal experiences... When you can come with actual numbers and static statistics where you count a LARGE percent of the player-base in your poll regarding that subject then you can speak about minority but until then, don't try to act like you know what you are talking about on that subject... SR is a matter of preference...

On subject: The rest of your quote was spot on about the assignments of each alliance for WoD.

I've yet to see the "ALL Dps" Method work. What I've seen happens is; ALL
the Dps end up dead then its a WIPE. This method needs to be forgotten about, since it saves 0 time and is very risky.
"Please think of the repair bills."

I witnessed this on Sunday for the first time. I wondered where the hell the DPS went and the tank was over ran by Wolfsbane and then I and a healer on adds team died I was on C (supposedly) but got messed up by adds when the tank and healers died on adds team...

[Nyalia]

All DPS fails if the DPS go for the Unknowns. That wipes the raid. That's the only downside to the All DPS method that I've seen. Instead of worrying that uninformed or bad DPS players in team B will kill the Unknowns (or that they'll all die trying to get in or after they get in, both of which are pretty darn common when doing the terrible ABC method), you have to worry about there being enough bad/confused DPS in the raid to kill the two unknowns before the good DPS kill all the stomach walls.

Still, the only time I saw the "all DPS" method fail was when only three of us went in. And, when we got out, the tanks were all dead (three of them couldn't tank three wolfsbanes? and Cerberus, with six healers out there...), and the wolfsbanes were roaming around killing all the DPS who stayed outside. Suffice it to say, it wouldn't have mattered WHAT method we used with that group, it was going to be a wipe. But then a bunch of players rage-quit, new people came, and we cleared it just fine with the new people.

So, really, what I'm trying to say is, the speed or wipeiness of the run has little to do with the method and everything to do with the people. If everyone knows what they're doing, five or fifteen DPS can clear the stomach - 15 is faster so you get 15 people back out to kill the wolfsbanes super fast forcing the healers to heal less damage from Cerberus but more damage from Wolfsbanes, or five stay in longer and the ten outside kill the wolfsbanes faster causing the healers to need to heal more damage from Cerberus but less from the Wolfsbanes. Both are totally valid, but I trust 2 of 3 random tanks + 2 of 6 random healers over 5 specific random DPS any day.

[Zedd702]

Fluff

I understand what you are saying, but that's why you stick to A/B/C there's always back up if needed... Attempting to shave 2-4 minutes off the Cerby battle with ending in a potential wipe that will set you and everyone else back much further than if you succeeded with the all DPS in method, is not worth the risk.

Several times I did WoD when I was DPS on B team B DPS went in with one healer and no tank, ignored unknowns and depleted the walls fast, heals were not even needed and the WHM helped DPS. that was both belly phases.

[point09micron]

It's pretty easy to see that "all DPS" is faster just by the limit break bar. Every time I've done "single group in" I've been able to LB2 2 of the stomach walls on the 2nd stomach phase (Black Mage). In "all DPS" method we usually barely have over 1 bar during the 2nd stomach phase. This also gives the off-tanks plenty of time to build aggro on the adds, so there's no danger of pulling hate when AOEing them down.

[Zedd702]

It's pretty easy to see that "all DPS" is faster just by the limit break bar. Every time I've done "single group in" I've been able to LB2 2 of the stomach walls on the 2nd stomach phase (Black Mage). In "all DPS" method we usually barely have over 1 bar during the 2nd stomach phase. This also gives the off-tanks plenty of time to build aggro on the adds, so there's no danger of pulling hate when AOEing them down.

Um no... that's just because you had a raid filled with people who were already OP from the start lol... Not because all 15 DPS went in.

[Nyalia]

I understand what you are saying, but that's why you stick to A/B/C there's always back up if needed... Attempting to shave 2-4 minutes off the Cerby battle with ending in a potential wipe that will set you and everyone else back much further than if you succeeded with the all DPS in method, is not worth the risk.

Several times I did WoD when I was DPS on B team B DPS went in with one healer and no tank, ignored unknowns and depleted the walls fast, heals were not even needed and the WHM helped DPS. that was both belly phases.

I've observed a 40% wipe rate with the A/B/C method. That's not less risk. That's more risk. You and people who agree with you can keep calling it less risk, but it's just not. A/B/C is the risky choice on the NA datacenters. Maybe it's different on the JP datacenters like someone said above, but on Aether, it's a 40% wipe rate. Or was back when anyone would be reckless enough to try it - no one does anymore on Aether. At least, no one has tried in the past several dozen runs I've done. Only once did someone whine loudly and repeatedly about the all-DPS method despite everyone else wanting to do it that way. We agreed to do it the A/B/C way, and then all the DPS ran in anyway, because this is a game and people are free to play it the way they want to without others telling them what to do. FYI, we didn't wipe. We cleared it easy.

Cerby auto-wipes the raid if you take too long. He gets stacks of Haste over time, and if you wait too long, gets a massive Damage Up buff that makes him start one-shotting people. Saying "there's always backup" makes no sense to me. What do you do, send in a second team when the first wipes? Does the MT (only one left outside) pick up the Wolfsbanes and Cerby, or do you wait to revive the whole other team first so the other tank (the one with weakness who died inside of Cerby) can tank all three Wolfsbanes? Do you have two healers handle the damage from all three wolfsbanes and cerby while the other two living healers go inside? How do you do all that without Cerby hitting enrage mode? What do you do if the team inside doesn't die, but just does too little damage (maybe their DPS all died trying to get in)? At what point do you say "the team inside needs backup, so let's switch to the All-DPS method?" How is that any different from just starting there, and why not just start there if you're going to rely on backup?


You said it yourself that heals and tanks aren't needed inside, so why do you tell all of B to go inside? If you're doing the A/B/C method, why not just send in the 5 DPS from B? Do you need the extra speed of having that extra DPS from the tank and healers? If so, a sixth DPS from another group would do as much (if not more) than those three members of team B combined, so why not send in B's DPS + 1 and stay outside to heal/tank the Wolfsbanes? If five wasn't enough so you needed that extra DPS from a sixth, then what if one of the six dies getting in? Send in a seventh just to be safe. Keep going with that logic train and you get the all-DPS method.

Saying you did it on B and didn't wipe, so no one wipes with the A/B/C method, is just wrong. Back when everyone used that method, we never wiped when I was on team B because I knew what to do and explained things to the party and enough listened so the unknowns weren't killed and the DPS made it in without dying. But, when I wasn't on B, wipe after wipe despite saying the same things in Alliance chat.


Also, to the people who say that advocates of the all-dps method are only DPS who want to get in the belly, I call BS. I prefer tanking WoD (though tank queues being horrible for WoD (plot twist!), I often queue as DPS for the insta-queue). I love calling OT and tanking the Wolfsbanes (or two of them if the other OT is paying attention and grabs the third) while the DPS are inside, just like I love being OT for the 5-headed-dragon fight and running around to handle mechanics so DPS don't have to (grabbing all the fire tethers, standing in all the poison, stacking with the purple marker, possibly covering them with Sentinel up, etc). Being an OT on a raid like this means you get to handle mechanics, but sometimes, no one is willing to be an OT and instead spend the whole fight fighting over MT. Sending a tank inside on Cerby requires all three tanks to be good for you to clear it. Not sending in a tank only requires two tanks to be good to clear it. That vastly improves the odds right there.


I'm not advocating that everyone should do the all-DPS method. While I find it to be less risky, you should play how you want to. I'm just saying that if the majority of the raid wants to do it one way (ie: all DPS in), get over it. People can and should play how they want to. It's a valid method (more valid than A/B/C, if anything) and saying one is "doing the fight the way it was intended" is just wrong. If a full team was supposed to be in the belly, damage from the Unknowns would be significantly higher to necessitate tanks/healers being in there, but damage in there is laughable (unless you're soloing it). If two full teams of DPS were supposed to be outside, then the adds outside would be strong enough that a single tank couldn't hold two of them, but a single tank can easily hold all three. Or, there'd be a DPS check outside as well as inside, but there isn't. Or, the number of people inside would be strictly limited, but it isn't (it might be limited to some number, but that number is much higher than 5, which is a single team's DPS count). Of course, if it was intended that only DPS go in and all DPS go in, there would be no adds in the stomach giving some small purpose to heals/tanks if everyone is horribly undergeared, and there would be no adds outside meaning there's no reason for DPS to stay outside. Neither is intended and both are intended, because SE wants you to play the way that works for you, and they've said in the past that they find it really interesting to see how people decide to handle the mechanics and how they differ from their expectations.

/walloftext

[FranSeara]

All-DPS method....." Its Not going to,Happen" Here's why, this method assumes everyone will be overgeared for the fight, you cant assume that EVER. As time gos on, the average item level will drop as old players move on and new first timers join up.

"Please just do the fight the right way" this saves time.......

If I see this method FAIL one more time,I'll start showing up at item level or lower ( I dare to come with the polar coat) to kill this
method myself. This method dosnt WORK, just stop trying it with PUG players. First.not everyone knows what this method is. 2. not everyone has to go along with it. 3. many players WILL FAIL at it. 4. WOD isnt your raid group, go try your new/silly/untested ideas someplace else or make your own 24 man roster.
WOD shouldnt take 2 hours to clear.

[Zedd702]

I've observed a 40% wipe rate with the A/B/C method. That's not less risk. That's more risk. You and people who agree with you can keep calling it less risk, but it's just not. A/B/C is the risky choice on the NA datacenters. Maybe it's different on the JP datacenters like someone said above, but on Aether, it's a 40% wipe rate. Or was back when anyone would be reckless enough to try it - no one does anymore on Aether. At least, no one has tried in the past several dozen runs I've done. Only once did someone whine loudly and repeatedly about the all-DPS method despite everyone else wanting to do it that way. We agreed to do it the A/B/C way, and then all the DPS ran in anyway, because this is a game and people are free to play it the way they want to without others telling them what to do. FYI, we didn't wipe. We cleared it easy.

Cerby auto-wipes the raid if you take too long. He gets stacks of Haste over time, and if you wait too long, gets a massive Damage Up buff that makes him start one-shotting people. Saying "there's always backup" makes no sense to me. What do you do, send in a second team when the first wipes? Does the MT (only one left outside) pick up the Wolfsbanes and Cerby, or do you wait to revive the whole other team first so the other tank (the one with weakness who died inside of Cerby) can tank all three Wolfsbanes? Do you have two healers handle the damage from all three wolfsbanes and cerby while the other two living healers go inside? How do you do all that without Cerby hitting enrage mode? What do you do if the team inside doesn't die, but just does too little damage (maybe their DPS all died trying to get in)? At what point do you say "the team inside needs backup, so let's switch to the All-DPS method?" How is that any different from just starting there, and why not just start there if you're going to rely on backup?

These same questions also apply to the "All in" method...

You said it yourself that heals and tanks aren't needed inside, so why do you tell all of B to go inside? If you're doing the A/B/C method, why not just send in the 5 DPS from B? Do you need the extra speed of having that extra DPS from the tank and healers? If so, a sixth DPS from another group would do as much (if not more) than those three members of team B combined, so why not send in B's DPS + 1 and stay outside to heal/tank the Wolfsbanes? If five wasn't enough so you needed that extra DPS from a sixth, then what if one of the six dies getting in? Send in a seventh just to be safe. Keep going with that logic train and you get the all-DPS method.

Let me clarify this as I believe I answered this in my last response. I never said ALL of B goes inside. I said that the DPS on B and one healer went inside handled walls, ignored adds and we were out of there pretty darn quick each belly phase...

Saying you did it on B and didn't wipe, so no one wipes with the A/B/C method, is just wrong. Back when everyone used that method, we never wiped when I was on team B because I knew what to do and explained things to the party and enough listened so the unknowns weren't killed and the DPS made it in without dying. But, when I wasn't on B, wipe after wipe despite saying the same things in Alliance chat.

Never said the underline part, that's just the way you interpreted what I said. As for the next part, I will say that it appears you are prefering the "All in" method as a precaution, because you are assuming that there are incapable DPS amongst your raid team. I answer this with a simple question that has been lost since the dawn of elitists in this game (and no I am not calling you an elitist). But What ever happen to people actually explaining mechanics for situations where people are questioning the "capable" people in a raid? What about the simple "Does everyone know the strat?" before the tanks and lol hur-dur-PS ninjapulls the boss for an auto fail with a raid with noobs... THAT's the real problem.

Also, to the people who say that advocates of the all-dps method are only DPS who want to get in the belly, I call BS. I prefer tanking WoD (though tank queues being horrible for WoD (plot twist!), I often queue as DPS for the insta-queue). I love calling OT and tanking the Wolfsbanes (or two of them if the other OT is paying attention and grabs the third) while the DPS are inside, just like I love being OT for the 5-headed-dragon fight and running around to handle mechanics so DPS don't have to (grabbing all the fire tethers, standing in all the poison, stacking with the purple marker, possibly covering them with Sentinel up, etc). Being an OT on a raid like this means you get to handle mechanics, but sometimes, no one is willing to be an OT and instead spend the whole fight fighting over MT. Sending a tank inside on Cerby requires all three tanks to be good for you to clear it. Not sending in a tank only requires two tanks to be good to clear it. That vastly improves the odds right there.

Dunno where this came from but ok, I'll bite. Just like you like queuing tank, there are others that have preferences too, which includes preferring going on belly team. I have seen more often times tanks actually swap positions in WoD because one is not comfortable with tanking Cerby or one prefers the adds etc, and even moreso with some dps wanting to do belly when they are on adds and chains team... call it what you will, but it exists...

I'm not advocating that everyone should do the all-DPS method. While I find it to be less risky, you should play how you want to. I'm just saying that if the majority of the raid wants to do it one way (ie: all DPS in), get over it.

I have yet to see another raid actually use this method with the exception of this past Sunday that I mentioned earlier in this thread and it resulted in a wipe because of no communication and while Belly team assumed they'd be oh Belly team and random dps from other teams went in the belly because they wanted to it resulted in a wipe. But again it all boils down to communication, which many players lack in this game...

People can and should play how they want to. It's a valid method (more valid than A/B/C, if anything) and saying one is "doing the fight the way it was intended" is just wrong. If a full team was supposed to be in the belly, damage from the Unknowns would be significantly higher to necessitate tanks/healers being in there, but damage in there is laughable (unless you're soloing it). If two full teams of DPS were supposed to be outside, then the adds outside would be strong enough that a single tank couldn't hold two of them, but a single tank can easily hold all three. Or, there'd be a DPS check outside as well as inside, but there isn't. Or, the number of people inside would be strictly limited, but it isn't (it might be limited to some number, but that number is much higher than 5, which is a single team's DPS count). Of course, if it was intended that only DPS go in and all DPS go in, there would be no adds in the stomach giving some small purpose to heals/tanks if everyone is horribly undergeared, and there would be no adds outside meaning there's no reason for DPS to stay outside. Neither is intended and both are intended, because SE wants you to play the way that works for you, and they've said in the past that they find it really interesting to see how people decide to handle the mechanics and how they differ from their expectations.

/walloftext

I feel you misunderstand me... I'm not saying that DPS all in should never be utilized or other undiscovered methods should never be used. I merely voiced my opinion on the matter as well as my personal experiences with the "All in" vs A/B/C methods... That's all.