[dev1032] PUG skills singled out.

[Murugan]

Since you want to talk LNC vs PGL:

Basic Skill Type----------Pugilist--------------Lancer

Attack + Effect------------Light Strike--------Heavy Thrust

Extra TP--------------------Pummel------------Full Thrust

Extra Damage----------------Flurry--------------Pierce

It all looks balanced to me.... until you suddenly add MP costs to Pummel and Light Strike for no apparent reason.

I suppose some visual aid may help.

A half second bind is balanced with light strike? I didn't realize that light strike was completely useless.

And pierce does damage to an enemy in between you and your target, flurry gives an extra attack. I'd take flurry in 99% of all situations.

Honestly, I normally wouldn't have a problem with people trying to get a boost for the class I play. But I'm worried you are laying it on a little thick with the "woe is me", what I don't want is a restructure of these abilities that leaves us actually handicapped or "red headed stepchildren" (drama!) rather than something as trivial as a little MP.

Yes, lets have random people jump in and say "30 mp is not a big deal" some more.

-Yes, we understand "30 mp is manageable." The point is it puts a limitation on only one class' TP gaining skills. Its a matter of consistency.

-Yes, we're all aware of the spell Stygian Spikes.

-Yes, we realize alot of people don't care to read the discussion before posting.

I'm not a random person, I'm a pugilist main and have been since Sept 22, 2010. I've been 50 since January, are you 50 pugilist yet on another character? Cause it looks to me like you are an archer who got pummel two weeks ago, has never played pugilist in darkhold or any difficult encounter where this stuff is actually an issue worth complaining about. Maybe you should stop talking for "us", because I for one don't agree with your level of panic over this, or your proposed solutions.

Add a very small amount of MP to second wind, problem solved. Best solution in the thread. Also rename it Chakra. With such a short recast Second Wind doesn't really fit anymore anyways. Oh and fix flurry in Battle Regimen please you forgot to turn off a switch somewhere when you changed it in 1.18.

[hotah]

I'm not a random person, I'm a pugilist main and have been since Sept 22, 2010. I've been 50 since January, are you 50 pugilist yet on another character? Cause it looks to me like you are an archer who got pummel two weeks ago, has never played pugilist in darkhold or any difficult encounter where this stuff is actually an issue worth complaining about. Maybe you should stop talking for "us", because I for one don't agree with your level of panic over this, or your proposed solutions.

First off, who's panicking? I'm asking for a valid reason to these MP values to be there. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason for it. My only proposed solution is to remove the MP value and bring it inline with the other similar abilities in game.

But about me being an archer main... yeah, that has alot to do with my powers of observation. You're absolutely correct: I have not had Pummel nearly long enough to realize exactly how MP on the skill is justified. You win.

If you'd like to know my favorite color, it's red. I am not sure if that has any relevance to this topic either, but give it a shot.

[Endu]

A half second bind is balanced with light strike? I didn't realize that light strike was completely useless.

And pierce does damage to an enemy in between you and your target, flurry gives an extra attack. I'd take flurry in 99% of all situations.

While I agree Light Strike is better than Heavy thrust, I gotta point out that 1 Lancer attack is about the same damage if not more than 1 Pugilist attack with 2 hits. So generally speaking Pierce will do more damage than Flurry and can hit every enemy in an enemy party if positioned correctly. Also from my own testing as both LNC and PUG 50, Full Thrust grants a little more tp than Pummel (although Pummel does a little more damage).

Personally I don't mind the mp on Light Strike, I don't think it should cost mp.... but I don't mind it. Mainly because it provides a buff. The mp cost on Pummel however is ridiculous, it's literally no better than Full Thrust.

I like the idea of Second Wind restoring a little mp too. They could also just raise the base mp on PUG by a little. It's manageble and all, but having to pop ethers is just lame.....

I don't really think having the mp costs on those skills makes the class in any way harder to play, just makes it different (and less fun for me).

[NoctisUmbra]

A half second bind is balanced with light strike? I didn't realize that light strike was completely useless.

Lancers pierce things, hit multiple targets, and work as a crowd/mob control while being able to stay more distant than other melee range DoW. Pugilists get up close and personal and are best used as a class that can evasion tank and deal dps simultaneously. There should be a difference. Both are class specific skills, with class specific buffs/effects.

However, Light Strike isn't even the issue. Although it still isn't justified in my opinion, 10 MP on Light Strike isn't a big deal in most scenarios. It's Pummel. Pummel's damage is basic, if not less than basic and it simply generates more TP than a basic attack. It is PGL's equivalent of Full Thrust, which has no MP Cost.

I can accept Light Strike maybe, but they seriously need to offer an explanation for Pummel, which costs even more MP than Light Strike.

And pierce does damage to an enemy in between you and your target, flurry gives an extra attack. I'd take flurry in 99% of all situations.

Again, what you're basically saying is "I'd rather play as a pugilist in 99% of all situations." Then of course by all means do so. This doesn't justify an MP Cost. Hell Flurry doesn't even have an MP Cost. Only problem with Flurry is still not being able to include in BRs.

Also, Flurry is 3 hits vs the regular 2 hits from a PGL attack - however each hit in Flurry does a bit less damage than usual, so Flurry ends up being just a tad stronger than a basic PGL attack, but not 1.5x stronger as 3 hits vs 2 hits would suggest.

Pierce hits for the same damage as a basic attack, but if you play like a lancer should play and position yourself to hit multiple mobs you're dealing more damage than a PGL ever would with basic attacks. LNC is a better DD than PGL. This is known. Who knows how much 1.18a will change that, but as it stands that is the case. PGL balances having less DPS with having more survival, thus being a viable tank.

Honestly, I normally wouldn't have a problem with people trying to get a boost for the class I play. But I'm worried you are laying it on a little thick with the "woe is me", what I don't want is a restructure of these abilities that leaves us actually handicapped or "red headed stepchildren" (drama!) rather than something as trivial as a little MP.

No one is laying it thick. I'm not creating drama. I'm asking for an explanation to this nerf. It is a nerf. The skills were balanced before. They don't need to change it into something different and risk making it worse, which seems to be what you're worried about... fear change? They simply need to make it what it USED to be - without MP costs. Asking to change it back is not asking for a restructure.

I'm not a random person, I'm a pugilist main and have been since Sept 22, 2010. I've been 50 since January, are you 50 pugilist yet on another character? Cause it looks to me like you are an archer who got pummel two weeks ago, has never played pugilist in darkhold or any difficult encounter where this stuff is actually an issue worth complaining about. Maybe you should stop talking for "us", because I for one don't agree with your level of panic over this, or your proposed solutions.

Looking up a player's class ranks makes for a weak, desperate argument. Pugilist is my main, was my main, was my first rank 50 and I still mainly play Pugilist. Here I am arguing against you. Don't lower the debate's standard by pointing out people's class ranks, especially when clearly there are r50 PGL mains who do not agree with you.

Add a very small amount of MP to second wind, problem solved. Best solution in the thread. Also rename it Chakra. With such a short recast Second Wind doesn't really fit anymore anyways. Oh and fix flurry in Battle Regimen please you forgot to turn off a switch somewhere when you changed it in 1.18.

If they did that, sure I wouldn't mind. It is an effective solution. Although at this point it seems more like a patch-up to fix something that shouldn't be there, it may just be something PGL needs for being unique. If so it would suggest that PGL uses MP as "chakra" to increase the effectiveness of it's strikes.

If they increase the duration of the Light Strike buff, and make Pummel hit much harder and/or generate more TP than it does now then yes I would be fine with it. The MP cost has to make sense. We have to see that using MP makes the skill better than it was before when it used noting.

Yes, please. Fix Flurry.

P.S. I still think they should bring back stances for PGL.