Cerberus DPS Method - It Needs To Be Said. . .

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Never did I say "send the tank in too", so let's just throw that out. And I'd like to say now that yes, even the "ABC" method has its imperfections (no, you DON'T need a whole team for chains and such; I don't consider this an "intended" strat, just a player base interpretation.) Still, of the 2 accepted methods, this one makes a little more sense, at least when it comes to handling fighting the boss from the inside. You also essentially suggested that you don't need coordination with 15. . . true as that might be, isn't the lack of coordination in the Tower raids already a huge problem? (I imagine that's why ST was made so yawningly easy). You might not need DPS to put the fire out metaphorically speaking, but would you agree that a fire extinguisher works better than a blanket when putting out a fire? (This is referring to the Wolfsbane, not the stomach walls, for clarification, I'm aware the statement can be applied to that as well but that's not the point I intended to make.) Lastly, the misconception is that only sending in 5 will take longer. I have tested this; it doesn't. Not if you do it right. Mind you, I ensure I'm attacking the same targets as everyone else, I'm ACTUALLY actively attacking (and not afk-ing or making a half effort), and utilizing any and all available buffs to maximize my damage output. Yes, with 15 people doing that, it SHOULD be faster. . . But I've proven 5 can do it just as well.

So the choice I have (and often make) is this: Do I go in and overkill on DPS inside, effectively ignoring the (arguably) bigger threat outside? Or does my alliance/the entire raid show enough damage potency and skill that I can effectively leave the inside to a smaller number of, again, CAPABLE DPS and instead do what I can to mitigate the outside threat?

I can't say it enough: Just because it's "faster" (it's NOT) doesn't mean it's better.

[Zedd702]

I can't say it enough: Just because it's 2-4 minutes "faster" (it's NOT) doesn't mean it's better.

There fixt that for ya

That's both belly phases... which is completely negligible...

[Garlyle]

I can't say it enough: Just because it's "faster" (it's NOT) doesn't mean it's better.

The big assumption you're making is that somehow sending in only a select few DPS means they're going to be the 'capable' DPS. Which is ridiculous, really. It's just as likely that sending in 5 DPS will be the worst five DPS in a raid as they will the best - except the consequences of the worst 5 DPS being trying to take out Cerberus' stomach is a lot more severe.

I mean if we're going to talk about the existence of incompetent players they're probably not killing Wolfsbane either. Might as well ensure that the major target of the phase - getting Cerberus to collapse - will actually be handled by players who know what they're doing. Because in the case of Cerberus, faster is actually better overall, because it's less time for Cerberus' haste and vulneurability stacks to get out of control.

[Zedd702]

The big assumption you're making is that somehow sending in only a select few DPS means they're going to be the 'capable' DPS. Which is ridiculous, really. It's just as likely that sending in 5 DPS will be the worst five DPS in a raid as they will the best - except the consequences of the worst 5 DPS being trying to take out Cerberus' stomach is a lot more severe.

And you're assuming that the DPS are not capable...

Who's to say that all 15 that go in are or are not capable? Seriously the walls inside Cerberus have very little life. It's dumb to send in ALL DPS to shave 2-4 minutes off the Cerberus battle...

You can't even make a good sandwich in that amount of time...

[Nyalia]

Generally, 1/3rd of the raid isn't sure what they are doing. It was always like this in ST, it will always be like this in WoD. That means that you have 3 tanks, 2 of whom know what to do, and 1 who doesn't. Let's look at the impact just that has on the ABC method.

Situation 1: Good tanks in A and C, bad tank in B. The tank who doesn't really know what's going on is very likely to die trying to get inside, but A is tanking Cerby and C has the adds. So, not too bad, but you've basically told the bad tank to go kill himself instead of being a bit of extra DPS.

Situation 2: Good tanks in A and B, bad tank in C. B goes in because, regardless of what she thinks, you've told her to and she's not going to waste everyone's time pointing out how dumb of an idea it is. A has Cerby, B goes in, and C DPSs Cerby trying to steal aggro. Wolfsbanes are untanked and wipe the raid.

Situation 3: Good tanks in B and C, bad tank in A. You've just told a bad tank to be MT. A loses aggro a lot, causing various healers and DPS to get killed along the way. B or C becomes MT because A can't handle it. The other goes inside because you've told them to. Wolfsbanes are untanked and wipe the raid.

Now, let's look at DPS. If 1/3rd of them are bad, you have 5 bad DPS and 10 good DPS. Bad, meaning they die to AoEs/mechanics, do very little DPS, or attack the wrong things. Let's say you've sent 2 bad DPS and 3 good DPS inside. The bad ones are wailing away on the Unknowns while the good ones are taking down the walls slowly. It takes so long to take down the walls that Cerby gets his Haste and Damage buff maxed and he's nearly one-shotting the tank by the time the 3 DPS finally kill the walls. Or, worse case, the bad DPS have good gear and kill the Unknowns before the walls go down. Cerby winds up with tons of health he shouldn't have and the fight goes on well past the second knockdown.

Or, even worse - half the DPS die on the way in, there's not enough DPS inside to do much of anything, and everyone inside dies. Cerby wipes the raid.

And then there's the healers - either you send two healers inside, leaving four to deal with actual damage being dealt while two do nothing (except maybe DPS?).



Back when people on Aether did the ABC thing, we wiped 2/3rds of the time. We wiped either because the group going in had no idea what they were doing or fought the unknowns, or because no one was tanking the Wolfsbanes. Once it took four attempts to clear Cerby, and that was after the first week so plenty of people knew what they were doing.

Generally, I see the ABC strat working these days because most DPS ignore it and all go in anyway, saving the raid. And, good tanks these days know to stay outside and ignore anyone who tells them to go in, causing there to pretty much always be at least two good tanks on the outside, one for Cerby and one for the Wolfbanes.


Sending only DPS in ensures that there are competent healers outside to heal the tanks, competent tanks outside to tank both Cerby and the Wolfsbanes, and less competent DPS who don't know how to go in outside to start DPSing the wolfbanes. It also ensures that there are enough competent DPS inside to kill the walls before the unknowns die and to kill the walls before Cerby gets his uber-buff. It IS safer, it IS faster, and it DOES result in fewer wipes. Maybe it's different on the datacenters where everyone knows what they're doing and does what they're supposed to, but assigning roles to people based on their arbitrary position in the raid and without knowing their familiarity with the content is just asking for disaster.

And, btw, I've never wiped with the "all DPS in" method, ever, except from mishandling of the chains, which is totally unrelated to ABC/All DPS.

[Alistaire]

Generally, I see the ABC strat working these days because most DPS ignore it and all go in anyway, saving the raid.

This. "It works because people don't actually do it."...kinda got a laugh out of that, but anyone coming in here now saying "I did ABC and it worked for me" lacks credibility because there's enough DPS that know better, and do what they should be doing regardless of what's called out.

[WellFooled]

I miss the days when just one party would go into the belly...as a tank I never get to be eaten anymore ._.

[Alistaire]

I miss the days when just one party would go into the belly...as a tank I never get to be eaten anymore ._.

You can always ask the other offtank if he's cool managing the adds himself. I do it all the time, I'd say go right ahead and enjoy getting eaten.

[Nyalia]

Yeah, as long as there are two competent tanks outside, one on Cerby one on the Wolfsbanes, there's no reason you can't go inside and DPS the walls along with the other DPS. Provided you don't need to split the Wolfsbanes due to the OTs being low ilvl (getting triple-spiked by that one attack of theirs can really hurt!), you might as well call yourself DPS.

[SarcasmMisser]

I wonder how many minds would be blown if I say on JP datacenters one alliance just puts their hand up to go in and that's it. There's no issue and I haven't seen them fail at their task.

Once again NA datacenters come up with goofy unnecessary stuff for the easy 24 man raid (tanking bone dragon at north lol).

Like I haven't even seen cerberus survive long enough to have to be chained a 2nd time since the first week, what is so hard about it lol.