SMN redesign in expansion?

[Natsuno]

I think there is some legality preventing Square Enix from using any suggestions from players as we are not employees of Square Enix. I can't think of a single mmo that did that.

I can think of one. World of Warcraft.

Two instances that come to mind, and I only remember these as they are to do with the only class I really gave two flicks about:

Rolling Blood Pact into Dark Intent. This was suggested via Twitter (iirc). Sometime during MoP.

There was a warlock 'tank stance' spell that got its name (Dark Apotheosis) from an MMO-Champion forum poster, when one of the developers in charge of the MoP warlock overhaul used to frequent the warlock sub-forum around about beta MoP to early MoP. Sadly, this spell no longer exists in game.

Actually, as far as all these long lists of spells that people are coming up with, they would probably have better luck if they didn't give specific values to the spells they suggest. These are probably more likely to be rejected outright without a second thought (Overpowered... Underpowered... Meh... lolwut?!). Leaving things more vague, along with a reason as to why you feel this change is needed probably allows the developers to do what they do, and more likely to incorperate the idea if it aligns with their vision for the class/job.

[Akiza]

The problem with Summoner is a DoT Damage Dealer is impractical for todays MMORPGS. When it comes to DPS in this game its about killing things as quickly and as efficiently as possible which DoT jobs are poor at. The reason why Scholar works so well is because the DoTs are secondary it's primary job is healing. The Summoner has problems now because the content is designed around bursting mobs down quickly and AoE which the Summoner lack. To solve the problem I suggest making DoTs the secondary source of damage and the Pet the primary source by giving them 8 very potent abilities and a unique role.
Ifrit Egi- physical single target bursts with frontal cones and abilities like Eruption and Radiant Plumes
Titan Egi- Physical Single Tank with abilities like Weight of the Lands and Tremors
Garuda Egi- Magic AoE Bursts with frontal cones, frontal cleaves and abilities like Great Whirlwind and Friction
Leviathan Egi- Debuffer Pet with abilities like wavespine and wavespume
Ramuah Egi- AoE Stun with abilities like Rollimg Thunder and Thunderstorm
Shiva Egi- Magic AoE Tank with conal attacks and abilities like hailstorm and avalanche

[Hammerfist]

The problem with Summoner is a DoT Damage Dealer is impractical for todays MMORPGS. When it comes to DPS in this game its about killing things as quickly and as efficiently as possible which DoT jobs are poor at. The reason why Scholar works so well is because the DoTs are secondary it's primary job is healing. The Summoner has problems now because the content is designed around bursting mobs down quickly and AoE which the Summoner lack. To solve the problem I suggest making DoTs the secondary source of damage and the Pet the primary source by giving them 8 very potent abilities and a unique role.

It's true that SMN needs a bit more burst damage, but a DoT-based dps is fine in this game; IMO, the problem of SMN is the whole Egi system.
Even if you add more pets and give each one of them one of the 4 different specializations (tank, melee st, ranged st, aoe), most people would probably end up using only the strongest one anyway since there are no real uses for the others, like we've already seen it happen with Ifrit-egi and Titan-egi.
Besides, with 3.0 we'll also probably get 2 new primals, for a total of 10 (if you don't count extras like Bahamut), but with this system I don't think we'll ever have more than 4-5 Egis... Aren't Summoners supposed to use ALL summons?
The Egi system is very impractical and it also requires a lot of extra development compared to other jobs, so honestly I don't really see any reason to keep it.

Oh, Egis are also incredibly ugly.

[Akiza]

DoT based DPS is highly inefficient in this game sure they can do the content but it's far more easier on jobs that use direct damage and bursts because content is designed around DPS being able to bursting things down quickly. Summoners lack in all areas of DPS that matters in this game.

[Cebo]

DoT based DPS is highly inefficient in this game sure they can do the content but it's far more easier on jobs that use direct damage and bursts.

That's more due to the potency of our DoT's. In most other MMO's, DoT abilties have higher overall damage than a direct damage attack, at the cost of delivering that damage over time. But here, our strongest DoT, Bio 2, has a total potency of 350, which takes 30 seconds to deal its damage. While Dragoon's Full Thrust is already at 360 potency and Ninja's Aeolian Edge at 320. Hell, even Bard's DoT's do a total of 310 potency (Venomous Bite) and 330 potency (Windbite) over 18 seconds. Despite SMN being the "DoT" class, their DoT's are really not that strong.

As an example, in WoW, a mage's Fireball does 159% of spellpower, and Frostbolt does 119%. The Warlock's primary DoT does 234% spellpower over 18 seconds.

[Akiza]

That's more due to the potency of our DoT's. In most other MMO's, DoT abilties have higher overall damage than a direct damage attack, at the cost of delivering that damage over time. But here, our strongest DoT, Bio 2, has a total potency of 350, which takes 30 seconds to deal its damage. While Dragoon's Full Thrust is already at 360 potency and Ninja's Aeolian Edge at 320. Hell, even Bard's DoT's do a total of 310 potency (Venomous Bite) and 330 potency (Windbite) over 18 seconds. Despite SMN being the "DoT" class, their DoT's are really not that strong.

As an example, in WoW, a mage's Fireball does 159% of spellpower, and Frostbolt does 119%. The Warlock's primary DoT does 234% spellpower over 18 seconds.

The problem is SE doesn't want the balance the DoTs like that so they should just overhaul the Summoner to be a direct damge and burst job.

[Natsuno]

Well, however the devs decided to go forward, I'm sure most people on the forums have made their stances clear. Just a matter of 'wait and see now' as far as I'm concerned. I would expect they do some sort of class/job previews before 3.0 lands.

[Skeith-Adeline]

They can't make SMN a direct damage and burst job. The other Caster is a direct damage and burst job. They need to differentiate the classes enough so they won't be CCs. If SMN ended up being a DD and Burst class like the BLM, then people would choose whatever is stronger, which would likely be SMN lol. What they need is more than 2 friggen casting DoM jobs.

[Shurrikhan]

They can't make SMN a direct damage and burst job. The other Caster is a direct damage and burst job. They need to differentiate the classes enough so they won't be CCs. If SMN ended up being a DD and Burst class like the BLM, then people would choose whatever is stronger, which would likely be SMN lol. What they need is more than 2 friggen casting DoM jobs.

Ninja and Dragoon have roughly the same oGCD burst, DoT potency, and combo scaling. Yet we have both, and they feel quite different. A CD- or setup-variegated DD DoM would still feel very different from the Fire-spam + Procs BLM. There is no reason to think that they would end up carbon copies just because they would both have little dependence on DoTs and can unload a high amount of damage in a short time. The DoT vs. DD "niche" does not vary playstyle as much as you seem here to think, and other elements likely far more. [Furthermore, a class will not be excluded according to its comparison only with it's 'carbon copies'; it will be compared with any other job that can fill its same slot and apply the same (if useful) limitbreak. BLM, DD vs. DoT class though it may be, already somewhat pushes SMN out of FCoB through its usually superior dps.]

My two cents: with the expansion still a ways off, they should have enough time to make it coherent (giving an actual reason for an interplay to the use of both unaspected disease-like DoTs and pets), make it fun, and make it balanced. But that's only if they decide it's worth the bother. For now I would just hope that the number of threads on SMN, useless or not, would be enough to show the general dissatisfaction with the job. As the BLM playerbase seems much less complaintive and yet is receiving a class overhaul, I can only expect that the SMN will as well.

[Shurrikhan]

That's more due to the potency of our DoT's. In most other MMO's, DoT abilties have higher overall damage than a direct damage attack, at the cost of delivering that damage over time. But here, our strongest DoT, Bio 2, has a total potency of 350, which takes 30 seconds to deal its damage. While Dragoon's Full Thrust is already at 360 potency and Ninja's Aeolian Edge at 320. Hell, even Bard's DoT's do a total of 310 potency (Venomous Bite) and 330 potency (Windbite) over 18 seconds. Despite SMN being the "DoT" class, their DoT's are really not that strong.

As an example, in WoW, a mage's Fireball does 159% of spellpower, and Frostbolt does 119%. The Warlock's primary DoT does 234% spellpower over 18 seconds.

Blizzard I - 170, Fire I (AF3) - e280(?), Bio - 240, Miasma - 300, Bio II - 350. Astral Fire's damage massive bonus is the only thing really throwing things off that scale.

Full Thrust is a 3-part move with an average potency of (150/200/360 -> 710/3 ->) 236.67. The strength of over half the chain's power resting in the last ability is Life Surge's auto-crit, but the power-per-GCD-execution is actually well less than your longer DoTs. I will agree though that SMN DoTs by no means feel especially strong. That they are called the 'DoT' class probably refers only to the gap in per-execute power between their DoTs and their filler (Ruin). Bio II does 350 - Windbite does 310. Ruin does 80 - Heavy Shot does 150. The ability to transfer the entirety of that component of dps (essentially all but pet and Ruin, at ~22% and ~20% of dps respectively, iirc) from ST to 4-target AoE dps is probably the other reason.