Once you start giving out the Carbontwines

[Snugglebutt]

-snipped-

For someone who keeps whining about inflammatory content in posts, have you even read what you have been writing over the past few pages. The most inflammatory and insulting posts are coming from you right now.

Again, I do like to swear sometimes, and I don't read forum rules, I just write stuff so get offended please cause I really don't care...

Here you go, I will help you out. http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...la=1&tag=forum

[Able]

This thread is an embarrassment to the community. I must be one of the few weirdos who doesn't play the MMO meta-game of being the most powerful. I've been in statics. And, throughout my whole career in this game, I never gave a shit about my ilevel or bonus stats. I do coil because it is fun content to tackle with my friends. There is no reason for me to be angry about those who don't do coil potentially being more powerful than me. Doesn't effect me in any way. When actually playable content ceases to be enjoyable, that's when I stop playing, not when I reach max ilevel.

Elitism is truly abhorrent and I'm happy it isn't a frequent attitude in this community. But, the over-representation of it on these forums makes this a very hostile place. I've probably added 5 or 6 people in this thread to my ignore list. And, yes, non-raiders can be elitists too. Stop calling people who raid no-lives. Finally, if you think that you have to raid to not be a "casual," then you're an idiot too. Please stop over using the terms hardcore and casual and attempting to give them a negative connotation.

[Snugglebutt]

I must be one of the few weirdos who doesn't play the MMO meta-game of being the most powerful. I've been in statics. And, throughout my whole career in this game, I never gave a shit about my ilevel or bonus stats. I do cool because it is fun content to tackle with my friends. There is no reason for me to be angry about those who don't do coil potentially being more powerful than me. Doesn't effect me in any way. When actually playable content ceases to be enjoyable, that's when I stop playing, not when I reach max ilevel.

This I agree with.

[Gardes]

Look, I'm just gonna finally throw in what I think about the OP's idea here. I raid. I don't raid as hard as the top guilds around. My raid schedule is completely reliant on my static's which completely falls apart when just 1 person doesn't show up. Our progression is slow and we're not raiding with the best tools (no one is using the best foods, constantly chugging xpotions, wearing million priced crafted gear).

I love getting stronger gear but I don't fuss about what stats it has all that much. I can be selective sure but I take what I can get. I have a DW boots with stats that I don't want but I wear it because the alternative is participating in hunts until I get a twine and upgrade my IW boots that has a better 2nd stat. I don't. Because hunt sucks and twine from coil is still being distributed for weapon upgrades for my group. I have some essential secondary stats that I'm still lacking at, such as hitting enough skill speed to be able to squeeze enough attacks during a berserk but I don't agonize over it all that much. I'm overloaded on accuracy but I don't keel over in fetal position and start making it my mission in life to get rid of that extra accuracy. I could have gone to wod over and over and over and over and over until I get an i120 piece that can replace an i120 i'm wearing to take out that accuracy but I don't because I would like to keep my sanity and keep my wod frequency to a minimum.

So I'm wondering why you, non raiders of all people, would care this much about secondary stats and even going as far as suggesting...this? Yoship implemented this 2ndary system to keep things simple. He wants things simple so that casual players can keep it casual and not fuss all so much about stats. He wants you to play and look at the pretty gears instead of reading the fine print on them. And you guys want to over complicate things by bloating the system? I know you guys are just gonna shoot back "Piss off! I play how I want!" or other similar replies like you guys always do and I understand that (in a dejected way I guess). I just question why you guys are so enthusiastic and supportive for a system of 'customization' that has very little impact on how you play and is more along the lines of what you see/get. Even then the way the 2ndary stats affect how you play is mostly detrimental (running out of tp/mp) or preventative (not missing and screwing up your combo). Only blm seem to actually benefit from it. The rest just makes numbers grow bigger. You guys tend to scoff at how hardcore number crunching gamers find fun in their mmos and now you're doing the same? Why?

Say this suggestion happens. It technically doesn't hurt me and would actually allow me to gain more ilvls on several classes faster. I guess. But I don't want to see larger gear variety growing on this system. It sucks. It too much fuss on too little a thing. It's half assed simple. I'd rather secondary be done away with and put some 'required' statistics into other measurements that already exists. Just have all main stats only and put the 'required' 2ndaries that existed be put else where. The fact that you need certain accuracy to never miss in a coil fight/trial? Put it in ilvl average. Need 5xx accuracy to hit t10's boss with consistency? Make it into needing to be i110 to hit the boss with consistency. Hell, I'm having trouble of thinking of anything that this does (removing 2ndary) that would make eorzea stop spinning. Help me out here.

[Snugglebutt]

To me and my perceptions, there is a different ideology at work on such issues. One is beneficial to the cohesiveness and enjoyment of the game for the majority while the other is detrimental and damaging to that cohesiveness. For example casuals are generally arguing for inclusiveness and enjoyment enhanced for the majority while in my opinion and my perception is that many of the hardcore raiders are arguing and promoting exclusiveness, the enjoyment enhanced for only the minority.

To me personally and my perceptions, many of the hardcore raiders are really only concerned with themselves and maybe they feel like they are on the defensive in the trenches fighting off the majority aka casuals in this case who are trying to get them to think about and enhance the game for all and not just themselves (themselves being the hardcore raiders). Raiders sometimes portray it as 'envy' and the one who has been most verbal on the side of raiders in the last few pages mentioned it being a sin...I am not sure why the person felt the need to go there in this argument but if roll with it and flip it, remember 'pride' is also a sin if they want to take that stance.

Personally I do not care for that sort of 'sin' argument and I can say 100% certainty I do not actually care much about my own ilvl...I do content because I enjoy it and it is something fun to do to fill time, if get better gear from it that is a bonus however what I do care about in a very big way is about the majority of players enjoying the game to it's fullest instead of backing the minority of raiders who somehow feel threatened just because their ilvl is somehow related to their ego aka we deserve it because we are better than you.

I take the side of the enjoyment enhanced for the many not just the few. I think honestly that there are so many rewards recognizing such accomplishments already like for example titles, achievements, minions, mounts and other vanity items so why is gear the be all and end all of that recognition to such people on top of all those others things? How can they not realize such suggestions like the one I made on page 24, post 234 or even many of the ones listed by the players in this thread and first post in this thread actually benefit them greatly.

More experimentation, more optimization, more people able to contribute to their favorite part of the game and at the same time having very little if any negative consequences outside of ego. An ego that I might add is already catered to in many ways outside of the gear specific aspect of recognition the game grants them for their achievements. It is not that I do not care about the sense of reward from their accomplishments per se, I think they have many already existing features of this game that covers that very aspect outside of gear itself, they are recognized for their accomplishment in many ways with or without the gear specific element.

I do not buy into the idea that it would impact the raider numbers in a bad way, if anything it would do two things...firstly it would create the environment where people are raiding for the right reasons which is fun and not feel forced to do something they hate because of the carrot on the end of the stick, those people who gain enjoyment from raiding would still raid same as before. Secondly at same time would increase the amount of people helping and working towards the same content you already partake in because they would be better geared towards doing so which would make them feel like they can try and succeed rather than put off from even trying.

On the excuse that the gear is best suited for optimization and experimentation in coils, we all know that is not true since any mob with a high enough HP pool is equally as viable for that application. I also do not care one bit for the excuse about devaluing the set pieces, the set pieces have no emotion, it is not a person, they are nothing more than a virtual object and they cannot affect the economy outside of those selling clears which in itself would only affect that in a very tiny way...so I don't care so much about the devaluing of them since the only devaluing element is on clear sellers slightly and some peoples egos, especially since as said I think the egos already catered to in many other ways from their accomplishments.

Let us not also forget the current system already works in a way counter to the raiders position so it is not an argument they can really win in the long run, all it really does is take it a tiny step further in this thread increasing the number of ilvl130 options from two to three. It does not remove the set from coils, does not remove the ironworks set from poetics and quest NPC/upgrade trade and all it does is allow for another quest NPC for example to upgrade the demon set to an ilvl130 (additional) variety which they themselves can benefit from using to experiment and add to their min/maxing options. Done potentially also in a way to benefit many others including new players struggling to find groups for non-raid dungeons or trials at the same time which has been a constant problem in this game depending on how the quest NPC for upgrading from demon set could work.

[Its_Elodie]

Its_Elodie, *STUFF* ALL ... ALL of that is to illustrate to you and other casuals that your excuse (not reason; excuse) for not raiding because of RL stuff is bull crap. If it's a priority for you to raid, you'll make it work. This is what I mean when I say, SE needs to stop the prematurely undervaluing of my accomplishments in FCoB. I found a way. People making excuses don't deserve 130 until 3.0 is out and FCoB is old. I'm in a static right now on T13 Phase 3 btw with that work schedule I mentioned above. LIKE I'VE BEEN SAYING THE ENTIRE THREAD, casuals demanding gear equality is weak when there are HUNDREDS maybe THOUSANDS of people like me out there finding a way because we want to work for something and not have it handed to us.

Your coil only Dreadwyrm and their stats/looks are unique to FCOB and our run of the mill poetics are a lot different? I thought the fact that it was only obtained in FCOB and wearing that as you earned it for completing it with whatever titles come along with the rewards for FCOB differentiates you from a person who hasn't completed FCOB? Or is it someone's sheer I level that bothers you? I don't get it. None of your accomplishments are being taken away, other than the fact that when people que up for an instance after riding the hunt zerg for weeks on end pre patch, they can heal/dps a little better and take a few more hits?

So then lastly, we come to your comment about there only being so much to do while you wait for 3.0 ... Stop it. Just stop it, okay?

I really have to say, being almost 32 years old on this forum, I've never been so turned off by a post addressed towards me. If you don't like what I have to say that's perfectly fine, I respect that. We are all entitled to our own opinion. You said yours, and I said mine. Can we for the love of Pete please post as adults and you not talk down to me because of a difference in opinion? It's a little childish, thank you. Like you say: "Can ya do me that solid, PLEASE?"

There is stuff for you to do, and if you literally have everything to 50, everything iLvl 120+, everything master crafter, every mount you can earn through achievements, fuck me ... how about every achievement too ... you're just THAT FREAKING GOOD, right? ... then yeah, go ahead and lapse your sub because ya know what?

2,3 years down the road that could very feasibly happen, actually. People play this game for different reasons. I'm not going to apologize for thinking all doors should be open through different routes for all of our player base. It is SE's game. I'm sure they thought out the effects of having i130 gear on people who don't raid before this last patch and those effects on the community.

That's not possible because there are only so many hours in a day, sweetheart, and a MMORPG is

Again. There's no need for this. ...it's perfectly possible for people to get bored with end game after they've done most of the other game's content. Who are you to dictate how they decide to spend it? After they've done all the end game they want and they decide to keep ahead for the next patch, I say more power to them. And I thought I should also add, I don't hunt because I hate it and would rather spend my time doing something less mind numbing in this game, so I haven't received a single piece of carbon twine, and tbh I'm not hurt about it at all. I'm not hurt one bit that someone who spent hours and hours grinding content got something I didn't, because for that type of effort and the time it consumes, I don't want it. I'm also not going to be the one to say that for all that time and effort that they shouldn't have it and it should be taken away though, either. I just don't let the reasons other people play this game affect me.

Hunts were something SE put in place as an option with their possible rewards and it was their system to decide to implement. I think the problem between the regular raiders who want to defend all of their accomplishments (level, gear, titles, and whatnot) and the casuals is the difference in opinion as to what is an actual achievement in this game, because for every individual its going to vary. If we all play for different reasons, who's to say all the time invested to be able to upgrade gear to 130 through hunting isn't a personal achievement and that someone didn't earn it? You, or me? It doesn't matter, because SE thinks it is, that's why its rewarded as such. Just like the time and effort put in is awarded in gear, titles, and I level is for someone in FCOB. The real difference in gear is that one person obviously spent a significant amount of time doing casual content and is in all i130 poetics, while you took the FCOB approach and are in Dreadwyrm. That's just what *I* would see. I'm not upset either way though. If someone wants to take the casual route or go the hardcore route that's their choice (and the beauty behind the gear progression route SE took), but it's a game and I'm not going to chastise or look down on someone for deciding to play XIV how they want either.

If I'm going to pay to get into a carnival I don't want someone to tell me I'm over 5 feet tall so I can only ride the rollercoaster. I want to be able to ride all of the rides at my own pace. So, the tilt-a-whirl, Ferris wheel, and etc would probably be more for me. More power to you if you take the rollercoaster route. You get the popcorn, cotton candy, and stuffed Crocadilly when you finish your ride (in achievements, titles, and Dreadwyrm gear). If someone decides to spend their time going around the low impact rides, they might get a popcorn at some point as a bonus (the i130 Poetics, with abysmal achievements and titles awarded). But, as long as we both had fun at the park, we both walk away happy.

Also:

If they don't have time for coil, how do they have time to hunt 24/7?

Like I said. I don't hunt, I'd rather coil tbh. I'm assuming there are people in this game who'd rather spend their time hunting than doing coil because that's their prerogative (and it's been almost my entire server's prerogative since the last patch and I'm on a more casual server). Then there's the people who hunt AND coil. Some people can't be tied down during certain time slots due to whatever personal obligations, but could be willing to come on and zerg as many hunts as they can at their convenience? I'm not going to knock anyone or discredit them as to how they spend their time in game. It's none of my business, really. It doesn't affect me in the slightest, either.

[Tiggy]

To me and my perceptions, there is a different ideology at work on such issues. One is beneficial to the cohesiveness and enjoyment of the game for the majority while the other is detrimental and damaging to that cohesiveness. For example casuals are generally arguing for inclusiveness and enjoyment enhanced for the majority while in my opinion and my perception is that many of the hardcore raiders are arguing and promoting exclusiveness, the enjoyment enhanced for only the minority.

To me personally and my perceptions, many of the hardcore raiders are really only concerned with themselves and maybe they feel like they are on the defensive in the trenches fighting off the majority aka casuals in this case who are trying to get them to think about and enhance the game for all and not just themselves (themselves being the hardcore raiders).

You break this down into only two but I offer you a third view point. From nothing more than a game balance perspective where everything has some effort value for some reward. When the effort to reward ratio breaks down the game falls out of balance. Everything top tier has a price associated. With raid you have to find a group, practice for hours on end, and play the RNG game week after week, but the reward is the top tier gear with no worries about upgrading. With poe gear you must first farm for a week or 2 and then hunt for hours to get the 3000 points to upgrade it. In both of these situations a price is paid. So while some people act like hunts is unlimited the fact remains a time price was paid. When a suggestion ignores balancing the price to reward ratio it's not good.

Not everyone argues from a place of haves or have nots. Some people are game theorists who just want whats best for the game overall. I have no ego for the gear I have and I always want more players moving through the ranks to the tougher fights. Without new players the raiding pool dies out. Our two sides naturally live together and coexist. The solutions in this game shouldn't ever cater to one group. That said I will always argue against the extremes of either the "casual" or "raid" group because they vehemently ignore the other side for their own self interests. That's a lot of what we are seeing in this exact thread. The real answers are in the middle. Between both groups opinions. Where the time and effort cost is fair to the reward received.

The world isn't black and white. There are more than two view points.

[Gardes]

More experimentation, more optimization, more people able to contribute to their favorite part of the game and at the same time having very little if any negative consequences outside of ego. An ego that I might add is already catered to in many ways outside of the gear specific aspect of recognition the game grants them for their achievements. It is not that I do not care about the sense of reward from their accomplishments per se, I think they have many already existing features of this game that covers that very aspect outside of gear itself, they are recognized for their accomplishment in many ways with or without the gear specific element.

Many outside of gear? Like what? 1 title and 1 minion and an achievement? I personally don't care much about the title and achievement and lousioux's cool but I'll use other minions before him, if I even use minions at all. I don't count these as many (I could live without these if they didn't exist, just give me the axe and coat) and I don't think other raiders who even care about 'recognitions' outside gear even think is enough.

I do not buy into the idea that it would impact the raider numbers in a bad way, if anything it would do two things...firstly it would create the environment where people are raiding for the right reasons which is fun and not feel forced to do something they hate because of the carrot on the end of the stick, those people who gain enjoyment from raiding would still raid same as before. Secondly at same time would increase the amount of people helping and working towards the same content you already partake in because they would be better geared towards doing so.

How would bumping wod gear to i130 increase the number of people doing content I'm doing outside of coil? Bumping wod gear to i130 increase subs? How? Explain this to me. Going back to your phrase "More experimentation, more optimization"...people getting max ilvl gear outside of coil isn't gonna help me much when it comes to clearing content outside of coil. It doesn't. So this player I get to play with in pug environment has 500 more hp and hits 10% harder due to his gear. 500 more hp isnt going to matter if he can't fight. 10% more damage isn't gonna amount to much if the original output is low. I'm not saying every non raider out there is bad. They just need the environment to encourage them to do better. That environment are hard fights that pushes them to be better each time. That exist in coil and the lure is gear. How is the lure gonna be as effective if everyone can get similar gear strength on much easier content? I realize that many of you don't want to play to do hard things, but why care about gear optimization if you shun skill optimization?

[Snugglebutt]

-snip-

There seems to be a lot of emphasis on 'me' in your reply which goes back to my original post above which further reinforces my perceptions listed in the second paragraph, first sentence "To me personally and my perceptions, many of the hardcore raiders are really only concerned with themselves". This is not a dig at you per se but just saying that by doing such things does not help change my perceptions.

The thing I wanted to reply to more importantly in your response is that I explained how it would benefit you in almost every aspect you questioned. In most cases it benefits you as a group, as a community and also you as an individual all of which I did explain already not only in page 26, post 256...but also page 24, post 234 and posts even before that in this very thread.

Some of which granted I may not have wrote paragraphs explaining each individual benefit but I think it is a bit overkill if I had to do that for every single thing I said to avoid nitpicking or shotgun argumentation methods. I feel I have explained in enough posts and enough detail to cover the questions you just asked already in this very same thread.

[Gardes]

You break this down into only two but I offer you a third view point. From nothing more than a game balance perspective where everything has some effort value for some reward. When the effort to reward ratio breaks down the game falls out of balance. Everything top tier has a price associated. With raid you have to find a group, practice for hours on end, and play the RNG game week after week, but the reward is the top tier gear with no worries about upgrading. With poe gear you must first farm for a week or 2 and then hunt for hours to get the 3000 points to upgrade it. In both of these situations a price is paid. So while some people act like hunts is unlimited the fact remains a time price was paid. When a suggestion ignores balancing the price to reward ratio it's not good.

You know, if the i130 wod thing happens, when you break down loot get rate on a weekly basis and you look at them separately..

8 players doing wod (easy to medium): 8x i130 pieces

8 players good enough to clear t10 (harder): 2x i130 piece
8 players good enough to clear t10-11 (harder): 4x i130 piece
8 players good enough to clear t10-12 (harder): 6x i130 piece
8 players good enough to clear t10-13 (harder): 8x i130 piece

When you look at it on 'bosses fought' basis, there are 4 wod bosses so the coil going players would have to fight all 4 bosses in t10-13. Both group will get 8x i130 pieces a week. Except the coil group will have a much harder fight to face and the loot are NOT distributed equally. Bad rng can go as far 1 player getting all loot while wod players can repeat the easy fights over and over to get any i130 piece they want.

When you look at it on 'difficulty' basis, a group of 8 players doing t10 only will have to exert more skill and concerted effort compared to 8 players clearing the entirity of wod. Wod players will be able to get any i130 piece they want for every single player while the 8 players doing coil will 2 pieces of i130 shared between the group.

Balanced.