I think its time BRD get some loving

[Alistaire]

No no no no just NO. For gods sake, I dont know what schmuck started saying this but it needs to stop... period. We play a song for casters that increases their damage, that damage is not ours, it is still very much theirs. This is like saying the ballad we play for healers, which allows them to keep the dps alive longer and continue to dps.. so a part of that damage should be ours AMIRIGHT?>???


The removal of the penalty from singing will not make us TOP DPS OMGSORS OMG OMG. It wouldn't really increase our damage that much at all actually. Bards arent singing 100% of any fight. (T13 is a different story, ugh)

However, with the way final coil is, monks and warriors are pretty damn handy also for their debuffs arent they? Lets reduce their damage by 20% while those abilities are up? Sounds good yea?

Yea, I am also for +1 - +3 WD --- Yep, I went their

Worst logic ever. It's not their damage because if you weren't singing foe they couldn't have it. It's damage that the BRD contributes to the raid, because that damage wouldn't happen without the BRD.

What's next? Saying the summoner's pet damage isn't from the summoner?

[Hik0]

with 3.0 and the level cap rise soon it's time people stop crying Xjob need buff/nerf and wait to see what happen at level60.
BRD(and all current jobs) will get (if SE keep current job growth) 2 new class action, 3new trait and 2 new job actions and 0-4 cross class skills.

[vp_cmc]

OMG, it is already started.



Guess what dps job is excluded from joining? And this is what will happen as soon as people will stop needing brd utility.

[Tiggy]

Math

Lawyered.
/10char

OMG, it is already started.



Guess what dps job is excluded from joining? And this is what will happen as soon as people will stop needing brd utility.

That party already has two bards so I don't see your point. It's not always beneficial to load up on one class and all the pic above shows me is that they already have enough bards and don't want a third. It doesn't prove anything being said in this thread.

[Alistaire]

OMG, it is already started.



Guess what dps job is excluded from joining? And this is what will happen as soon as people will stop needing brd utility.

Do you really think BRD is getting excluded from Cape Westwind? It's more likely an oversight. Rapid clicking and missed it. The party you quote as excluding bards happens to have 2 of them in it. GG

[Hik0]

OMG, it is already started.



Guess what dps job is excluded from joining? And this is what will happen as soon as people will stop needing brd utility.

I laugh so hard when I see such PF then run a DF trial and when i exit the PF is still waiting 7/8, run another in DF and guess what they're still 7/8...

[SlyRoyale]

OMG, I'm grasping for straws like a fool!

quality/10

[DoubleD]

Last time you brought up numbers I tried to show that as long as the bard is doing a percentage of the dragoons damage overall balance does not change even though the gap in raw damage dealt grows.

Lets say your dragoon does 100 dps, and your bard does 85 dps against a boss that has 100,000 HP. The fight will last 540.54 seconds during which the dragoon will have done 54,054 damage and the bard would have done 45,945. The bard did 45.9% of the boss's total HP, and was at 85% of the dragoon's damage.

Lets say we increase the duration of the fight 5x to a boss with 500,000 HP. In this case the fight will last 2702 seconds during which the dragoon will have done 270,200 damage, and the bard would have done 229,670. The bard again did 45.9% of the total damage, and was 85% of the dragoon's damage.

Now lets scale up the dps 5x to 500 dps for the dragoon and 425 for the bard, and a 500,000 HP boss. This again comes out to 540.54 seconds for the fight, with the dragoon at 270,270 damage and the bard at 229,729. This is still 45.9% of the total damage and 85% of the dragoon's damage.

The above shows that duration and scaling are independent of the actual overall balance.

To maintain bards at whatever percentage lower than other dps, it is expected that the difference in weapon damage and stats between classes would grow because if stats grow by 5x, then the gap between the stats and weapon damage should also end up growing 5x which would lead to absolutely no change in balance relative to other classes. As you saw above, when the difference was 15 or the difference was 45, it didn't matter, the bard still did the same percentage of the boss's HP.

Ok, this is relatively easy to show if you are only talking about 2 DPS that comprises the whole party.

[B]But there's also another MNK/NIN + BLM (and when they fix it, SMN) + 2 Tanks that's weapon damage is scaling properly to factor in.

The percentage does not matter. Like I've said so many times, with larger numbers, the raw number of that percentage greatly inflates.
This is going to the extreme, but say a bard ends up doing 1,000,0000 less damage points than a MNK/NIN/DRG 3~4 years down the line.

Do you really expect Paeon to justify bringing a bard and Paeon to make up for that kind of damage?

At patch 2.3 bard was doing enough actual damage points less than melee and casters. Even SMN was very powerful in 2.3.
SE should base it off doing less actual damage points than percent. We are still going to do less damage than any other DPS class. Basing it off percents is going to greatly limit a bard in the future.

This is what I mean that bards are contributing less actual damage to the fight with every other patch.
Every other Job has their weapon scaling properly. Tanks, SCH, WHM, Casters and Melee are get these huge boosts in raw damage with each patch. I could care less how much "percent" a bard does less.

It is still ok now (barely). But SE needs to draw a line of 5 WD points lower than Melee. Not lower percentage.
We're still always going to be lower damage.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

DoubleD i think you are confused.

The raw number doesnt matter. All that matters is the % relative to other classes. Thats what dps class balance is.

If a Monk did 10,000 dps and a Bard did 9,995 then thats 5 less still but the Bard and Monk would be doing basically the same dps and there would be a HUGE imbalance.
If a Monk did 10,000 dps and a Bard did 9,000 then thats a 1000 dps difference but it would not be imbalanced at all because Bard would be doing 90% of the Monk's dps which is better than it does now!

Mobs have X amount of hitpoints, and you generally want them to die in Y amount of time. The actual numbers DO NOT matter, only the ratios.

You said "say a bard ends up doing 1,000,000 less damage points than a WAR/NIN/DRG 3~4 years down the line." In that scenario, the mob will have BILLIONS of hitpoints and the Bard doing 1 million less overall damage still only equates to several seconds' worth of dps due to stat inflation.

Think of it this way: if Class A does 50% the dps of Class B, it will always take Class A twice as long to kill things. It doesnt matter if their dps is 500/1000 or 44,444/88,888. (unless you are killing the mob in 1 hit, but thats not the kind of content being discussed)

[DoubleD]

DoubleD i think you are confused.

The raw number doesnt matter. All that matters is the % relative to other classes. Thats what dps class balance is.

If a Monk did 10,000 dps and a Bard did 9,995 then thats 5 less still but the Bard and Monk would be doing basically the same dps and there would be a HUGE imbalance.
If a Monk did 10,000 dps and a Bard did 9,000 then thats a 1000 dps difference but it would not be imbalanced at all because Bard would be doing 90% of the Monk's dps which is better than it does now! Mobs have X amount of hitpoints, and you generally want them to die in Y amount of time. The actual numbers DO NOT matter, only the ratios.

You said "say a bard ends up doing 1,000,000 less damage points than a WAR/NIN/DRG 3~4 years down the line." In that scenario, the mob will have BILLIONS of hitpoints and the Bard doing 1 million less overall damage still only equates to several seconds' worth of dps due to stat inflation.

Think of it this way: if Class A does 50% the dps of Class B, it will always take Class A twice as long to kill things. It doesnt matter if their dps is 500/1000 or 44,444/88,888. (unless you are killing the mob in 1 hit, but thats not the kind of content being discussed)

I understand your point. This is easy to factor when you just look at two DPS side by side.
The most common party composition is:

2 Melee
1 Caster
1 Bard
1 Pal
1 War
1 SCH
1 WHM

I'll throw some I guess average #s out there for turn 13. (average - not highest)

WHM DPS is usually pretty much a non-factor in FCOB - but everywhere else it also matters.
SCH - 185 DPS (Their WD is scaling properly)
OT - 230 (Their WD is scaling properly - same as Melee DPS)
MT - 175 (Their WD is scaling properly - same as Melee DPS)
BLM - 435 (Their WD is scaling properly)
MNK - 470 (Their WD is scaling properly)
NIN - 460 (Their WD is scaling properly)
DRG - 450 (Their WD is scaling properly)
BRD - 415 (Their WD is 10% less than melee and tank every patch)

Ok, that's 6 spots in the party that's WD is scaling normally. I'm not sure how to calculate how many percent higher a casters / sch weapon is compared to a bard, but I'd also say 5 or 6% after conversion of magic damage vs physical damage.

Now when you compound this WD percentage x 6 (or 7) other jobs that weapon scales at 10% higher than a bard. It basically compounds to subtract what a bard brings to the table for every fight.

That's 7 spots in the party that's WD is scaling at a higher percentage rate than a bard.

It's easy to say ok Bard, you're going to do 10% (subjectively) less damage than the DRG when the two of you compose the entire party.

But in 8 man raids, 4 man dungeons, this is not the case.


So 1 vs 1 a DRG would do 10% higher.
But when you compound the 6 or 7 other jobs that weapons scale higher, this is what diminishes the bards return every patch.

This is why I feel a Bards WD should be x number WD lower than melee vs 10% lower than melee.

It's not a 1 vs 1 completion.

This is why I feel bard weapon should scale at 5WD less than melee. The other DPS is always going to do more damage.