I think its time BRD get some loving

[Galdous]

Bzzt. There is no debate about the role of the bard because the playerbase set the role in the form of min maxing when 2.0 came out. Our ability to give near limitless mana along with the ability to circle around all mechanics without skipping a beat along with tp song. It was an ability that strengthened the raid team so greatly with stacked bards that SE nerfed the job to where raids only utilize 1 now. The issue is how well is the bard job doing in this game. It is the most played job so we are doing better then most other jobs. If we are given more dps then we will lose our support strength which I am not willing to give up because that is how balance is done at the high end and just affects the rest of us as we are here for the ride. Bards are way stronger then other jobs right now when you equate our utility stacked against the other dps jobs. For that benefit of being able to strengthen both casters and physical dps we suffer a slight dps loss.

[Atomnium]

I'm commuting at the moment, so I apologize I can't reply to every part of your long winded reply. It's scaling poorly because of our weapon damage and our secondary stats are so critical (pun intended) that our main stat is being left behind.
...
I'd provide my own, but I'm currently traveling to Chicago and I won't be home for the weekend. Then again, parsers are illegal, so I don't use them

You really don't need to show any parser data to be honest but if you want to, feel free I guess. I do know the numbers and anyway you missed the whole point of my "winded reply".
All problem you listed are a very common issues that many jobs actually have to face with itemization, SMN included is suffering from itemization as a punishing bonus with their MP issues.
But meanwhile, as BRD, you are far from being excluded from contents or less appealing for a team.
Bleh, I give up.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

"Needed" =/= "Balanced", necessarily. Just sayin.

Bards should be the lowest dps of the dps-classes, but not be a whole lot, IMO. Afterall, they have the highest utility, but not by a lot.
Anyway, in a perfect world this is what I'd do (but it wont happen):

-Swiftsong has its cast time changed to instant (stopping to cast it is just counter-intuitive to the spell's purpose of getting you places quicker, and discourages use between pulls)
-Foe Requiem, Army's Paeon, and Mage's Ballad have their cast times reduced to 2 seconds and the damage penalty on Paeon and Ballad are changed to -10%. (would encourage more singing, and BRD would still be lowest dps of dps-classes)
-cancelling a song can now be done anytime independent of the GCD (this would encourage more active MP management, something good Bards do anyway but yeah)
-the ridiculously long animation lock on Bloodletter is slightly reduced
-the Potency of Quick Nock is reduced to 100 (currently Quick Nock spam is more TP efficient than the intended Wide Volley-RoD-QN combo. This would put WV ahead of the other AEs in potency to address this)
-the additional effect on Rain of Death is changed to a piercing resist debuff (does not stack with Disembowel) for 20 sec. (not spammable or even maintainable, but would be something useful for RoD and further encourage use of the AE combo over QN spam)

I could of course be wrong, but I still think this would leave Bard with the lowest DPS of the dps-classes, but would close the gap a bit.
I think this would just cause a lot of Bards who dont sing enough to start singing more and managing their MP better.
As long as Bard is the lowest dps of the dps-classes, it will not be desireable to stack Bards (therefore no imbalance).

[Galdous]

The current gap right now is fine. If we allowed bards to have their dps bumped to within 5-4% dps of other jobs then the rotation of bards needs to be increased or force a bard to have a debuff to damage when moving around to compensate. The reason we are meant to be lowest is because our ceiling dps cap is also the easiest to achieve which is higher then most floor dps of other jobs. That is why you see bards at the top of the dps parses in the 24 man raids and most dungeons.

[dice137]

^My thoughts exactly.

I main a BRD and even I think that others classes take priority over us in terms of who really needs some immediate help, if any at all. BRDs (truly good ones, that is) are still ridiculously desirable for a majority of game content -- especially Coil. We are not broken nor are we struggling to function. Just the opposite. We are fine as is, at least as far as current content is concerned.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

The current gap right now is fine. If we allowed bards to have their dps bumped to within 5-4% dps of other jobs then the rotation of bards needs to be increased or force a bard to have a debuff to damage when moving around to compensate. The reason we are meant to be lowest is because our ceiling dps cap is also the easiest to achieve which is higher then most floor dps of other jobs. That is why you see bards at the top of the dps parses in the 24 man raids and most dungeons.

You dont balance classes around ease of play. You balance them around dps and utility.

If we balanced around ease of play, WAR would be significantly stronger than PLD. (it isn't)

Some ppl like simpler classes, and some ppl get bored with simple classes and prefer more complex ones. It's a matter of preference and one isn't inherently better than the other.
A good game offers both gameplay options, but doesnt balance class power around it.

[TheWaywardWind]

Thought I might jump in before others. Prepare yourself for a lot of people lashing out at you for advocating for more BRD damage. I am a BRD main and I have pretty much accepted that everyone not BRDs wants BRDs to be useless except for songs.

Similarly, the only people who would generally support this are bard mains who feel bad they didn't main a serious DD class and need to stroke their e-peen with a damage increase.

Bard is half dps, half support. You cannot kill off the slight DPS negation from supporting seven other people and still expect to do the same amount of damage; that's crazy.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

Similarly, the only people who would generally support this are bard mains who feel bad they didn't main a serious DD class and need to stroke their e-peen with a damage increase.

Bard is half dps, half support. You cannot kill off the slight DPS negation from supporting seven other people and still expect to do the same amount of damage; that's crazy.

Bard has just 3 support skills.
None of them ever benefit 7 people at once.

Its not half and half. If anything its like 80/20, while other dps classes are 90/10.
Bards have more utility than other dps, but not a whole lot more. They should do less dps than other dps-classes, but not a whole lot less.

[dice137]

Ease or difficulty of play is besides the point. BRD doesn't need any kind of tweaks at the moment. There are some changes that could be made to BRD that would be convenient for quality of life or necessary for completion of future content. But BRD's output in terms of optimal dps or utility, for the role they're meant to serve, is not lacking right now.

[TheWaywardWind]

Bard has just 3 support skills.
None of them ever benefit 7 people at once.

Its not half and half. If anything its like 80/20, while other dps classes are 90/10.
Bards have more utility than other dps, but not a whole lot more. They should do less dps than other dps-classes, but not a whole lot less.

They don't do a whole lot less. I have seen the numbers and I've read through much of this thread; there isn't a single justifiable reason to buff bard other than "I want to do more damage."

People need to stop looking at damage numbers from Dragoon, Monk, and Ninja and think, "Damn, I should be doing those numbers, or very close to them!" because you shouldn't. That's not taking into account the myriad number of benefits that being a bard provides over being a base melee, which includes
-Being more able to support party members
-Able to move around attack at no cost to overall DPS output
-No positionals required whatsoever
-No confusing or difficult rotation to master

All of the other DPS classes do so much more damage because they require these things. Bard, however, does not. And not only does Bard not require positionals or a heavy-set rotation, it has the ability to support others en masse. The second you move away from a boss as a melee, you lose DPS. Similarly, mages get interrupted and can't move and attack (outside applying simple DoTs and scathe).

Bard is fluid and easy to manage and provides a wealth of abilities and support for other classes. The fact that nearly every bard main in this thread is complaining about their DPS output tells me that they either need to start playing better or start playing a different class. There is nothing wrong with Bard, pure and simple.