The Hunt Public Shaming Needs to end

[NyarukoW]

...If you incite others to blacklist a specific player, you are in fact harassing that player - regardless of what you believe they have done.....

That is really funny. How often do we ask people or have even been asked by SE and GMs to blacklist gil sellers? And we are in fact harassing their means to generate actual income and put food on the table for their starving kids. I do NOT think you have grounds to consider the act of blacklisting or even asking people to blacklist specific trouble makers to be harassment. And coordinating a strategy to not res the early pulling troll is not harassment because we are always free to communicate with each other in game about how we handle an in game challenge. This is fair game because the early puller troll is really playing PvP against the rest of us in the hunt LS and the larger community as to who get credit on the elite mark.

[Kosmos992k]

That is really funny. How often do we ask people or have even been asked by SE and GMs to blacklist gil sellers? And we are in fact harassing their means to generate actual income and put food on the table for their starving kids. I do NOT think you have grounds to consider the act of blacklisting or even asking people to blacklist specific trouble makers to be harassment.

You know what, I give up, you are a lost cause.

[ColeSlawter]

From when it gets discovered and announced over the LS network.

Excuse me but this statement assumes I belong to one of YOUR sanctioned "hunt LS".

So since I have not signed the contract and paid my dues for the honor of joining your sanctioned network then that means I get a pass on the 60 second early pull bullsh*t? If I am bound by some agreement that I did not agree to in order to earn the right to hunt (as it seems you have claimed them as yours) YOUR hunt mobs, then you are bound by agreement to wait for me to get out of the shower and arrive at the location. Then you can pull.

[NyarukoW]

Excuse me ...
So since I have not signed the contract and paid my dues for the honor of joining your sanctioned network then that means I get a pass....

That is the same attitude tobacco companies, polluting companies, or the neighborhood trouble maker takes. Guess what that does work very well in real life and likewise in game, especially one that needs the cooperation of other players. Go ahead and get yourself blacklisted and see how far you can get, and it make no sense given that the hunt LS share hunt information and help everyone get to the hunt mark and let everyone participating get the reward.

[Izsha]

So fast pullers are isis and Somali pirates? Way to hyperbole guy. SE makes the game, they define the terms we all live by (in game). They are the law we all signed a contract to play by (litterally. You click yes to agree ot you cannot play).

SE'S rules are the ONLY rules. Player defined courtesies (that is all this hunt drama is) is just that. A courtesy. You cannot enforce it because it is a player fabricated rule and players have NO AUTHORITY. SE is the single solitary authoritative figure in eorzea and the have the means to enforce the or rules via gms, bans, and other punishments.

You can pretend these hunt courtesies are laws of the land but it's do just a delusion. Players have no power to enforce this idea of how to play hunts and SE will not act on your behalf to enforce them for you.

You have no power here gandalf the grey. And you aren't secretly gandalf the white underneath.

Players have no authority to make rules. Any rule you make has no value. No contract. No teeth to enforce. All you can do is ask players to comply, but if they don't there is no recourse. But shamer don't accept that. And I'm not talking about "XX pulled the mob". I mean the insults and continued verbal abuse thaT goes on and on. Not all the shamers are what you describe as polite information givers. They are often berating, insulting, and don't tire easily. Those actions are clearly harrassement and reportable. Those are the shamers the op and others are pushing back against in this thread. Not the guy that politely shouts "please don't pull so quickly. Thanks!"

[ColeSlawter]

especially one that needs the cooperation of other players.

I have no need of any help or cooperation from you or anyone else that expects me to follow some socialist style rules that I don't find enjoyable. I have my friends, we do our thing and whatever you got going on in your networks is of no concern of mine. I'll be just fine if the people blacklist me for not giving in and joining and conforming to the hunt mob mentality.

Thanks for the concern of my wellbeing though

[NyarukoW]

...
SE'S rules are the ONLY rules. ...

Players have no authority to make rules. Any rule you make has no value. No contract. No teeth to enforce. ...!"

Really? Even in the U.S. with laws at every level, federal, state, local etc. Yet the Clipper owner was forced by the NBA to sell regardless of his 1st amendment rights.

I wouldn't be so sure that players have no teeth and have zero means whatsoever to enforce player instituted standards of behavior. I witnessed a whole FC dissolve and jump server because of their bad hunt behavior. It has been done and can be done again, all without violating SE rules. I am no gandalf the grey or white, and my powers are really mortal and very limited, but along with other players we have the power not to be played for fools by trouble making early pullers.

[Thayos]

...If you incite others to blacklist a specific player, you are in fact harassing that player - regardless of what you believe they have done.....

This, I disagree with. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a "Joe Smith pulled the mark" shout. It all happens out there in the open... would seem kind of silly if we weren't allowed to simply comment on what we see. Most of us playing the game are adults, and nothing as benign as "this person pulled" should cause much of a ruckus. That's not enough for a rational, reasonable person to spiral into "harass" mode.

One could argue that early pullers incited people to reset mobs, so others could get credit... but does that mean the early puller broke a rule? Of course not. Same thing goes for people who make simple, clean, non-negative comments which is followed by other players who choose to grief.

All that aside, the problem isn't "public shaming." The problem is disagreement over when marks should be claimed. The "shaming" is simply a symptom of that problem.

I wouldn't be so sure that players have no teeth and have zero means whatsoever to enforce player instituted standards of behavior. I witnessed a whole FC dissolve and jump server because of their bad hunt behavior.

Yep, social consequences can be even more punishing than actual laws, just in a different way.

Which is why I said earlier, the summary of this whole issue (for everyone involved) is simply "don't be an ass."

[Lycelle]

Snip Snip Snip.

Do you understand anything that she just posted to you or are you just spouting nonsense and babble? Let me break this down into an actual law as set by the United States Government.

What Are Defamation, Libel and Slander?
Generally speaking, defamation is the issuance of a false statement about another person, which causes that person to suffer harm. Slander involves the making of defamatory statements by a transitory (non-fixed) representation, usually an oral (spoken) representation. Libel involves the making of defamatory statements in a printed or fixed medium, such as a magazine or newspaper.

Typically, the elements of a cause of action for defamation:

A false and defamatory statement concerning another;
The unprivileged publication of the statement to a third party (that is, somebody other than the person defamed by the statement);
If the defamatory matter is of public concern, fault amounting at least to negligence on the part of the publisher; and
Damage to the plaintiff.
In the context of defamation law, a statement is "published" when it is made to the third party. That term does not mean that the statement has to be in print.

Damages are typically to the reputation of the plaintiff, but depending upon the laws of the jurisdiction it may be enough to establish mental anguish.

Most jurisdictions also recognize "per se" defamation, where the allegations are presumed to cause damage to the plaintiff. Typically, the following may consititute defamation per se:

Attacks on a person's professional character or standing;
Allegations that an unmarried person is unchaste;
Allegations that a person is infected with a sexually transmitted disease;
Allegations that the person has committed a crime of moral turpitude;
While actions for defamation have their roots in common law, most jurisdictions have now enacted statutes which modify the common law. They may change the elements of the cause of action, limit when an action may be filed, or modify the defenses to an action for defamation. Some may even require that the defendant be given an opportunity to apologize before the plaintiff can seek non-economic damages.

In this case the word we are looking at is Defamation When you actually make an attempt to ruin someone's reputation in-game by shouting about something they may or may not have done and you have 0 legitimate proof to actually back your case. This leads to what is called to harassment, kind of like he-said, she-said.

Gossiper A: Did you know Joe has Aids? Well he might have aids, I don't know for certain.
Gossiper B: No. But I do now. Let's tell people.

Gossiper A and B then begin spreading false reports of Joe having Aids to the general public. The people hear it, word spreads. People start to avoid Joe until word reaches to his friend and his friend tells him of the situation.

Friend: Hey Joe do you have aids?
Joe: No? Who told you this?
Friend: Some gossipers down the street.

In this case Joe would be the plaintiff as he's now trying to defend his reputation in this case (his sex life) from being tarnished by people who simply felt like making an accusation. It's the same thing as trying to slander someone for early pulling. They could have done it or they could not have done it. To try to make them seem like public enemy number 1 is a form of harassment. You are going out of your own way to see that they personally are made miserable through your own actions that YOU alone started. So in this case it is a 1 on 1 issue. You and the X (X being the early puller). It is not by your own right to see to it this person is punished for their actions, but SE's. File a report and move on.

[Kosmos992k]

This, I disagree with. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a "Joe Smith pulled the mark" shout.

I agree, that basic shout would not be a problem. But, adding the instruction or request for everyone to blacklist Joe in that instance would be, which was the point I was making.