White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

[Cynfael]

Snip

Succor alone doesn't cut it as a massive AoE heal, and neither does Whispering Dawn. They are excellent tools when used appropriately, but they do not work the same way as Medica, Cure III, or even Medica II. A SCH flat out cannot equal a WHM in instant AoE HP restoration, and there are times when you need that AoE burst.

Sacred Soil isn't worth mentioning in this conversation; it's only relevant in situations where the incoming damage cannot be healed, and even then SCH tools aren't well suited to recovering a raid from 1% HP to full in moments.

[Sebazy]

What? Succor is an up front 150 potency heal, with a 150 shield. take that shield as preparing for disaster to come soon. Also the ability to mitigate 10% of the damage dealt from AoE with a sacred soil. Depending on how much damage the group took, that could act as another 150 potency ( around 5000 damage mitigated to 4500 from sacred soil). Along with the AoE being magic damage? Let's increase the groups magic defense to reduce it even FURTHER... I think both are quite good at AoE healing, especially with +30% and +20% whispering dawn acting like an AoE REGEN spell with divine seal.

And yet despite all the 'potency' this and 'damage reduction' that, you neglect to mention the range, positioning, cooldown and charge limitations of all of these abilities as well as the time and GCDs required to get a Fey/Rouse/WD combo going whilst EoS is trying her hardest to spam embrace at the same time (And assuming that Selene isn't up of course). Try not to miss out the not so little details please <3

[Slib]

And yet despite all the 'potency' this and 'damage reduction' that, you neglect to mention the range, positioning, cooldown and charge limitations of all of these abilities as well as the time and GCDs required to get a Fey/Rouse/WD combo going whilst EoS is trying her hardest to spam embrace at the same time (And assuming that Selene isn't up of course). Try not to miss out the not so little details please <3

Moving Eos to break embrace cast and having her cast something else is not that difficult, but also makes scholar harder to play, and more fun. Yes, she wants to cast embrace, but they are ways around it.

[Slib]

Succor alone doesn't cut it as a massive AoE heal, and neither does Whispering Dawn. They are excellent tools when used appropriately, but they do not work the same way as Medica, Cure III, or even Medica II. A SCH flat out cannot equal a WHM in instant AoE HP restoration, and there are times when you need that AoE burst.

Sacred Soil isn't worth mentioning in this conversation; it's only relevant in situations where the incoming damage cannot be healed, and even then SCH tools aren't well suited to recovering a raid from 1% HP to full in moments.

They prevent damage overall which was what I was trying to get at. Damage Preventing will reduce future healing required. You are still getting EHPS from the succors for lets say, Mega Flare into a Rage of Bahamut. You can also have a sacred soil down for both hits too AND a breath on the tank also. That mitigation helps pick scholar up to the point where they can't burst heal like a White Mage. That is my point. If the damage is dealt and people need a pick me up ASAP then yes, white mage cure 3 is godlike. But, in most, if not all situations, a lot of damage prevention with a Whispering Dawn as an after effect of picking everyone up over time is highly effective.

[Velox]

Double SCH is no more lacking than double PLD, yet whilst double PLD was pretty much the accepted standard for coil1, I'm yet to be asked to do a coil clear as double SCH. Strange given how 'superior' SCH is supposed to be?

To be honest, double SCH is the standard for BCoB as well. There is almost zero significant AoE damage between turns 1 to 5. 99.9% of all damage was on the tanks. This lead to PLD/PLD SCH/SCH parties being the optimal choices for BCoB. In fact this was the primary reason that SE added more AoE damage to SCoB and FCoB. They realized that there was a gross disparity between the healers if content isn't designed to play off their strengths, and BCoB lead to many WHM being sidelined.

[Slib]

<key detail> The SCH solo heal was 3 Bennu's </key detail> thus the AE healing portion of phase 3 was trivialised to succor and forget status. Overall it's an encounter with a pretty low healing requirement providing people handle the mechanics right.

Even with 4 bennus you'd get to ~ 11 stack on pheonix which isn't that bad to deal with as scholar alone. It's after the 12th stack is when **** starts to hit the fan.

[Slib]

To be honest, double SCH is the standard for BCoB as well. There is almost zero significant AoE damage between turns 1 to 5. 99.9% of all damage was on the tanks. This lead to PLD/PLD SCH/SCH parties being the optimal choices for BCoB. In fact this was the primary reason that SE added more AoE damage to SCoB and FCoB. They realized that there was a gross disparity between the healers if content isn't designed to play off their strengths, and BCoB lead to many WHM being sidelined.

That's interesting. 2 PLD? Warrior supplies a stacking 10% damage reduction on the target...how did that not become better than having 2 PLD at the start?

Edit: By stacking I meant with Paladins Rage of Halone debuff it stacks with.

[Raminax]

That's interesting. 2 PLD? Warrior supplies a stacking 10% damage reduction on the target...how did that not become better than having 2 PLD at the start?

Edit: By stacking I meant with Paladins Rage of Halone debuff it stacks with.

Back when Binding Coil/the game was freshly released, Storm's Path merely healed the Warrior. Wasn't until 2.1 I believe that Storm's Path got a 10% outgoing damage reduction debuff applied to Storm's Path (though Bards could apply it through Rain of Death, but that was switched over to a 10% evasion drop instead with 2.1).

[VanilleFang]

Moving Eos to break embrace cast and having her cast something else is not that difficult, but also makes scholar harder to play, and more fun. Yes, she wants to cast embrace, but they are ways around it.

That wasn't her main point at all and you know it.

Sebazy was pointing out your gross negligence of everything else that comes, and goes, with all the abilities you mentioned. Like Aetherflow being used by multiple, important abilities. Cooldowns. The range, effectiveness, and duration of said abilities. Not only that but the fact that Eos is for healing, and if you have Selene out instead you aren't going to have access to all those Healy/damage reduction Fairy spells you listed. Just "moving" Eos isn't going to fix any of these points you neglect to look at.

These are all important to mention because you, and others, keep putting out "oh SCH can do this so there!" without correctly, and fully, comparing them to WHM.

[Cynfael]

They prevent damage overall which was what I was trying to get at. Damage Preventing will reduce future healing required. You are still getting EHPS from the succors for lets say, Mega Flare into a Rage of Bahamut. You can also have a sacred soil down for both hits too AND a breath on the tank also. That mitigation helps pick scholar up to the point where they can't burst heal like a White Mage. That is my point. If the damage is dealt and people need a pick me up ASAP then yes, white mage cure 3 is godlike. But, in most, if not all situations, a lot of damage prevention with a Whispering Dawn as an after effect of picking everyone up over time is highly effective.

I'm very familiar with how SCH mitigation works, and there are plenty of situations where working with a WHM is way more efficient. There are good reasons why player max HP and the presence of a WHM are of concern in certain fights.

Edited because I'm not sure exactly what we're debating here. My main point is that there are obviously things that WHMs do better and/or differently than SCHs and that WHMs still don't need "fixing" beyond allowing Shroud to scale with Max MP going forward.