We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

[Osmond]

You can tell ppl that smn can make over 400DPS, but none never point out how long before your MP runs out or make it to a certain time limit before that player+pet stop attacking. Having more peity at the sacrifice of the loss of det and crit is a loss of DPS on a SMN period. There is no other way around it. No smn will take that chance when they are competing other DPS to stay on par w/ theirs to make the fight easier and faster kills.

[Gallus]

What's the duration? 5 min? 10min?

Last time I did 5 min, but I could've done 40 min if I wanted, I generate 3 more times more mana than what I spend DPSing with my SCH. With SMN this only applies with the extra piety I've mentioned and perhaps the occasional Energy Drain. What I'm trying to make people see (and failing to do so) is that having 1% less DPS output has far less weigh than being able to bring permasustained damage without ever worrying about your mana.

[Crevox]

Do not use piety on your stats, do not use piety on your gear, do not use piety on your weapon, do not use piety in your food. There is no reason to, learn to manage your MP.

Such a huge waste of DPS.

Hold on a second, basically you are actually agreeing on people complains BUT it is something you actually enjoy and so, everyone else have to shut their voices?
No offence but not everyone are masochists and while I respect your tastes when it come to the "pleasure" point of view, it is not the case for everyone you know.

Every single job has fights they don't like. You don't see Monks begging for a buff because they lose their Greased Lightning on some fights. However, even though those fights are a little rough for us, we can still pull really good DPS. It's just slightly unfavorable.

Same thing with Monks on fights that they don't like. They learn to manage. They don't complain and beg for buffs.

So, there again, using energy drain over fester is a "deserved punishment" for you even though the dps loss is kind of unfair when you are directly in competition for tight dps check fights :/
Where you see being greedy with mana, I just see DPS optimization to be honest.

You have the power to dictate how much mana you burn. You burn more mana, you do more DPS. You be mana efficient, and you perform a good amount of sustained DPS. Regardless of whether or not you energy drain, our DPS is good. We are not "weaker" than other DPS classes. This is how our rotation works. Why is this a bad thing? We have fantastic control over how much DPS we do, how much mana we burn, etc. We can burst when we need it and weave Banes and other AoEs into our rotation optimally.

SMN is designed very well. Its concept (a DoT class) may not be what I was hoping for (I'd rather be focused on pets) but they did a very good job on what exists right now.

having a BLM for adds phase will make your life as smn more "easier"

If you want to think about it that way, having a BLM hurts our DPS because our DoTs cleaved onto everything can't tick their full duration, thus reducing our time to get the OP AoE DPS. But, that's not a very good way to think about it.

while your BRD loses 20% of it because they have to sing ballad for you.

Do not make Bards ballad for you. Ever.

Come on guys. Do not sit here and complain about SMN just hoping for SE to buff you. We don't need a buff. If people don't know how to manage their MP, or on those certain fights where MP sucks (T8, T11) it can be considered bad quality of life, but that's pretty much it. Take the effort to learn how to play better instead of just giving up and saying "SMN is bad, not my fault" and playing another job.

[Osmond]

No one isn't saying SMN is bad, but saying that making the DPS optimal is costing MP as a whole due to slow recovery. BLM is great for adds especially if they can triple or quad flare it if they can at the same time they can recover their MP quickly after the fact. SMNs can't do that so left at a disadvantage if on the AoE department. You telling ppl not to complain. Then please explain how they were able to buff DRGs, MNKs, and WARs. Was it due to complaints? What you saying doesn't make sense Crevox. By that mind of logic then they shouldn't buff DRG to make their potency buffed, jumps shorter, MNKs greased lightning buffed, keep them where they are before the buffs is that what you saying? There is a reason why they are looking at fan feedback.....

[Crevox]

SMNs can't do that so left at a disadvantage if on the AoE department.

How are we at a disadvantage? DoT cleave and your DPS skyrockets. You can AoE DPS with minimal MP cost, if any, thanks to Bane. I actually out DPS my BLM on T13 on the adds part of the fight, even though he's flaring. In every fight, you know when the adds are going to show up, so you can be totally ready with your Aetherflow, Garuda cooldowns, and other things when they show up. Flow your rotation, cooldowns, and MP management to be optimal when you need it.

We have tools. Make use of them, and we do very well.

No one isn't saying SMN is bad, but saying that making the DPS optimal is costing MP as a whole due to slow recovery.

Sure, we could push super tons of DPS, but only for a short time and we burn our MP. So, you don't do that. You maintain a steady, fair MP rotation that does good DPS, and then adjust as needed. For the duration of the fight, and the end, our DPS is good and competitive with other jobs. Just because you CAN push more DPS than everyone doesn't mean you should, you'll burn out all your MP. Learn to manage it.

Every fight has different timings when you want to burn more MP, less MP, shorter fights, longer fights... etc. You make the most out of your MP pool.

Then please explain how they were able to buff DRGs, MNKs, and WARs. Was it due to complaints? What you saying doesn't make sense Crevox. There is a reason why they are looking at fan feedback.....

Because those jobs actually needed buffs. WARs were a mess when they released. DRGs survivability sucked and they needed a small DPS boost. I don't remember what the case was with MNKs.

SMN is fine. You say we have MP problems, but we don't. You manage your MP and it's fine. For some reason you think we do bad DPS if we manage our MP well and do a nice sustained rotation, but we don't. Our DPS is good. There's no reason to buff us because our DPS will get even higher, higher than it should be. Like I said, we do have some MP issues on certain fights (T8, T11, *maybe* the end of T13) but if you manage your MP our DPS is still good. Every job has fights they suffer on, but again, they don't go on the forum complaining for buffs because of a few different fights they do slightly less DPS on. Like I said, I still push top DPS on T10-T12, only losing on T13 to a Monk. Why do you want to buff Summoner?

The ONLY reason we can give why our DPS is not even better than it is right now is because our itemization sucked this patch. That's just poor itemization, and even then, like I said, our DPS is fine right now.

[Osmond]

How are we at a disadvantage? DoT cleave and your DPS skyrockets. You can AoE DPS with minimal MP cost, if any, thanks to Bane. I actually out DPS my BLM on T13 on the adds part of the fight, even though he's flaring.

I haven't done T13 so you beat me on that one.

Sure, we could push super tons of DPS, but only for a short time and we burn our MP. So, you don't do that. You maintain a steady, fair MP rotation that does good DPS, and then adjust as needed. For the duration of the fight, and the end, our DPS is good and competitive with other jobs. Just because you CAN push more DPS than everyone doesn't mean you should, you'll burn out all your MP. Learn to manage it.

It would make sense if the player's gear can make it to where they don't have to push their MP. It's why I can't assume to that conclusion if they are comparing your character's gear to theirs via lodestone, how they know the fight and mechanics.

[Crevox]

It would make sense if the player's gear can make it to where they don't have to push their MP.

It would be super cool if our relic did something to help our MP, but doesn't.

Our rotation is our rotation. It would be like if gear for Monk had increased TP regen or had Store TP. But, they don't have something like that. They have skill speed, which does the opposite technically, and we have spell speed, which is the same. Maybe in 3.0 we'll get interesting gear and stuff that'll tweak how we play, but for now, we're stuck with what we've got.

Either way, currently, it is functional as is.

[Osmond]

It would be super cool if our relic did something to help our MP, but doesn't.

Our rotation is our rotation. It would be like if gear for Monk had increased TP regen or had Store TP. But, they don't have something like that. They have skill speed, which does the opposite technically, and we have spell speed, which is the same. Maybe in 3.0 we'll get interesting gear and stuff that'll tweak how we play, but for now, we're stuck with what we've got.

Either way, currently, it is functional as is.

True, I can't complain on that statement.

[Zholi]

How are we at a disadvantage? DoT cleave and your DPS skyrockets. You can AoE DPS with minimal MP cost, if any, thanks to Bane. I actually out DPS my BLM on T13 on the adds part of the fight, even though he's flaring. In every fight, you know when the adds are going to show up, so you can be totally ready with your Aetherflow, Garuda cooldowns, and other things when they show up. Flow your rotation, cooldowns, and MP management to be optimal when youneed it.

We have tools. Make use of them, and we do very well.

SMN is fine. You say we have MP problems, but we don't. You manage your MP and it's fine. For some reason you think we do bad DPS if we manage our MP well and do a nice sustained rotation, but we don't. Our DPS is good. There's no reason to buff us because our DPS will get even higher, higher than it should be. Like I said, we do have some MP issues on certain fights (T8, T11, *maybe* the end of T13) but if you manage your MP our DPS is still good. Every job has fights they suffer on, but again, they don't go on the forum complaining for buffs because of a few different fights they do slightly less DPS on. Like I said, I still push top DPS on T10-T12, only losing on T13 to a Monk. Why do you want to buff Summoner?

The ONLY reason we can give why our DPS is not even better than it is right now is because our itemization sucked this patch. That's just poor itemization, and even then, like I said, our DPS is fine right now.

Sorry, but your group must be pretty bad for you to think these things. If you, a SMN, are pushing top DPS in every fight, your other DPS are flat out bad. SMN is easily the weakest DPS in the game right now, even behind BRD, to address the OP.

[Crevox]

Sorry, but your group must be pretty bad for you to think these things. If you, a SMN, are pushing top DPS in every fight, your other DPS are flat out bad. SMN is easily the weakest DPS in the game right now, even behind BRD, to address the OP.

Sorry, but your SMN must be pretty bad for you to think these things. If you, a SMN, are pushing bottom DPS in every fight, your flat out bad. SMN is easily not the weakest DPS in the game right now, even ahead of BRD, to address the OP.

Man, it feels icky being mean saying those things, but it was a fun point to make.

SMN is not the worst DPS. Pulling 463 DPS on T13 is not "bad." I never said my group was good or bad.