I want to stop playing Summoner.... But I cant

[Sleigh]

IMO
T10 - BLM
T11 - BLM
T12 - BLM
T13 - BLM

FTFY

It's getting worse as we gear up. Nothing's living long enough for SMN multi-DoTs to breathe long enough in high DPS groups, you'll be lucky if SMN even does 1/3 the damage of BLM on a Bennu before it's dead. Now it's just burn burn burn everything. Not only that but the current farm meta IMO is about pushing phases faster and faster, skipping mechanics, and SMN will never win there.

SMN's so good on paper but if you personally use SMN and use BLM in the same gear, same group, the difference just jumps at you. You'll notice halfway through the fight you're multiple % behind and possibly getting a mechanic you should have skipped, or scenarios where adds get burned down with BLM that suddenly with SMN it's surviving longer and the OT is eating more damage, taking away healer attention from DPS or healing the MT.

I do think, if there's a proper buff, SMN will win T11 and T13 (well, win in the sense that it will win on Bahamut, not necessarily the add phase, but that's irrelevant to any good group these days). Honestly don't think SMN will ever compete with BLM T10 and T12, the multi-DoTing gets less effective every week, and T10 phase pushes are very annoying as SMN since the DoTs stop ticking.

[Judge_Xero]

Honestly don't think SMN will ever compete with BLM T10 and T12, the multi-DoTing gets less effective every week, and T10 phase pushes are very annoying as SMN since the DoTs stop ticking.

I still think SMN has the edge over BLM for T12 Bennu Phase. Assuming you're pushing 4 Bennus

BLM - Flare - Astral 3 ~ 364 Potency - 468 Potency
SMN - B2MB @ 9 Seconds 330 Potency + M2 Potency 50 - Total 380 Potency - With the Potential of 730 DPS running for 18s


I know that BLM can Flare multiple times - But SMN is also doing Single Target Damage + their pet is doing damage. If you Dot up a Big Bennu each new spawn, it times up very well to Bane to the small bennus.

So IMO - this is why SMN has the upper hand in T12 - because they can spread almost equal damage, plus with their single target damage they can burn down the individual Bennus faster to push through the Big Bennu spawns faster, which in turn keeps their Dots reapplied to all the little bennus.

Even if things are dying faster
380 Potency/9s = 42 Potency/s
730 Potency/18s = 40.5 Potency/s

On a Damage Per Second scale it doesn't change a whole lot, unless you are tossing out Dots that will have little time to do anything.
I feel 9 seconds of Dots spread by Bane is very reasonable for the Bennu phase.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

T10 Phase pushes are annoying, but you know they are there. I cringe when I see a SMN throw all their Dots on Imdogud just before an add phase. We have Ruin for a reason and just Bio + Ruin is stronger than all the Dots + Ruin for a whole 15 seconds. (including cast times to apply them)


As long as you are adjusting your rotation for things dying faster, then the DPS should equalize, since:
Bio + Ruin is strongest for up to 15s
Bio + Miasma + Ruin is strongest for 21s
Bio + Miasma+ Bio 2 + Ruin is strongest past that, or if you need to Fester.

So with things dying faster - you should really be able to do even more damage overall.

[ShinryuReishiki]

BLM - Flare - Astral 3 ~ 364 Potency

Flare in AF3 (+80%) is 468 potency. In 9s, without Convert, Mega Ether, or even Swiftcast a BLM could do 828 potency per target. It's not like Flare is a BLM's only spell.

[point09micron]

BLM - Flare - Astral 3 ~ 364 Potency
SMN - B2MB @ 9 Seconds 330 Potency + M2 Potency 50 Potency - Total 380 Potency (@ 18s it's potentially 660 + 70 - 730 Potency - So 2 Flares @ AS3)

I don't want to get in the middle of the "SMN sucks now bawww" and "no you suck" argument flying back and forth here, but I did want to jump in for this point.

Astral Fire III boosts damage by 80%, boosting the 260 potency of Flare to 468 on a single target. 364 potency would be Flare under Astral Fire I (40% boost), and it would be 416 under Astral Fire II (60% boost).

Edit: Ha, I got beat to the punch by Shinryu, probably while I was mathing the AFI and AFII numbers.

Flare in AF3 (+80%) is 468 potency. In 9s, without Convert, Mega Ether, or even Swiftcast a BLM could do 828 potency per target. It's not like Flare is a BLM's only spell.

And even if Flare was BLM's only spell, getting 3 of them off in 9 seconds is child's play with the use of Convert, some type of Ether, and Swiftcast. That's 1404 potency per target in 9 seconds without even being tricky with the timing.

[Judge_Xero]

And even if Flare was BLM's only spell, getting 3 of them off in 9 seconds is child's play with the use of Convert, some type of Ether, and Swiftcast. That's 1404 potency per target in 9 seconds without even being tricky with the timing.

Thanks, I updated my post.

1404 Potency per mob is some great front loaded damage. I'm curious what type of numbers/rotation a BLM would perform after that initial burst, and how long the recovery would be Transposing into Umbral I.

[point09micron]

Thanks, I updated my post.

1404 Potency per mob is some great front loaded damage. I'm curious what type of numbers/rotation a BLM would perform after that initial burst, and how long the recovery would be Transposing into Umbral I.

Recovery wouldn't be any longer than any other rotation ending in Flare. Transpose, and you have some MP back in 3 seconds or less. Toss a Thunder or Blizzard if you want, hard-cast Fire III and you're back to the start of the regular rotation. It would be a while before you could do anything so excessive again, but it's easy to end any rotation with a single Flare > Transpose.

[Judge_Xero]

Recovery wouldn't be any longer than any other rotation ending in Flare. Transpose, and you have some MP back in 3 seconds or less. Toss a Thunder or Blizzard if you want, hard-cast Fire III and you're back to the start of the regular rotation. It would be a while before you could do anything so excessive again, but it's easy to end any rotation with a single Flare > Transpose.

Just doing some quick numbers then, between BLM recovery and SMN being able to continually Dot further Bennu's, as long as SMN dots get to tick for 15 seconds or more and including the loss in AOE as Bennus die, SMN can gain 200 Potency per set of Bennu's over BLM rotation.

So ~800 Potency over the course of the Bennu's - So from that 1400 Potency from BLM can do at the start, SMN can catch up to within ~100 Potency of that over the life of the Bennu's. But BLM will still have 100 Potency X the number of initial Bennu's (400 Potency)

So I'd think SMN can catch up on that 400 Potency somewhere.

[Viridiana]

Bio + Ruin is strongest for up to 15s
Bio + Miasma + Ruin is strongest for 21s
Bio + Miasma+ Bio 2 + Ruin is strongest past that, or if you need to Fester.

I had a nice big post typed up about why this is wrong. Then my computer crashed. Again. So, I'll summarize. All that follows assumes that you know the target will die in 15 seconds (or enrage and all your dots are about to vanish, or something).

Bio, 5xRuin is 600 potency and costs 501 MP. That's about 1.2 potency/MP. Not horrible, but not the best.
Best damage is Bio2, Bio, Miasma, 3xRuin at 700 potency (You can switch B2 and Miasma. If they don't run full duration the order doesn't matter). This costs 635 MP, though, and that only gives you about 1.1 potency/MP. More damage, less efficient (again, over 15 seconds only).
Most efficient was, iirc, Bio, Miasma, 4xRuin at 680 potency for 555 MP, or 1.23 potency/MP. I want to say that Miasma->Bio was second best efficiency at the same MP cost for 5 less potency.

So, plenty of combinations are simultaneously more potent and more efficient than Ruin spam. This should not be a surprise to anyone remotely familiar with Ruin.

[Sleigh]

I still think SMN has the edge over BLM for T12 Bennu Phase. Assuming you're pushing 4 Bennus

Aiming for 3 Bennu, a GCD off this week. Will be 3 next week, something which we wouldn't be able to do with SMN (which is the biggest DPS increase of all).

The thing about add phase, SMN vs BLM, you can't actually utilize either of them to their full potential. It's not, who does more on 4 targets in X time frame, BLM or SMN; both of them can destroy all the small ones in short order by themselves and have to throttle their AoE. As BLM I can only do a rotation with CDs then an extra one, after which I am forced to single target with my rotations ending in Flare. At that point it's about who kills big Bennus faster, BLM or SMN, and considering they only live about 10-15s SMN can't contribute as much as BLM shooting out 1200 damage Fire 1s every 2.2s (6K+ on a Bennu getting focused, SMN has a hard time doing that much in a limited time frame without spending CDs which won't be up for every big Bennu).

Regardless, BLM will still do more total damage in the fight, still help push Phoenix quicker, and better help skip the 2nd dodge phase that groups shouldn't be getting these days.

T10 Phase pushes are annoying, but you know they are there. I cringe when I see a SMN throw all their Dots on Imdogud just before an add phase. We have Ruin for a reason and just Bio + Ruin is stronger than all the Dots + Ruin for a whole 15 seconds. (including cast times to apply them).

Oh definitely. It's still an unfortunate side effect of their damage which is a negative, one which BLM doesn't get impacted much by.

I realize I'm talking from the perspective of an overgeared group but that's what stings the hardest for me, picking SMN will actually impact my overgeared group, it's not "just" less DPS, it's less DPS and more mechanics. To me and for a lot of groups that's almost as relevant as progression BLM vs SMN since this is our FCoB for the next 5 months unless something's done.