Shard/Crystal Ceiling Price

[kaworutabris]

With inflation creep (more currency continues to enter the economy than exits thereby raising average prices slowly over time) eventually shards would only be bought from npcs. (why should bots in the future mine shards that sell for 50 gil each ((assuming a theoretical npc sells for 51)) when they can mine grade 1 carbonized matter going for a future 300 gil a piece) the bots would move on to other sources of gil. SE only responds to bots to show an effort as players dislike them, but bots pay subscriptions too (yeah, SE makes money off bots, so other than making a show to the player base they try to limit bots, they really don't have an incentive to get rid of them until enough players decide to drop subscriptions because bots made their game un-fun that it over rides the incremental revenue bot account holders generate. If you don't think this is how business works keep dreaming). So, if your gripe is you dislike shard prices, fact is they keep your shard prices lower than what it would be without them. What players want to spend days gathering nothing but shards? If your argument is you dislike bots, they would move on to other items if shards are shut down. If it's because you don't see shards as a gaming activity worth player time, then consider that shards are targeted at brand new players who think "I want to try a gathering job!" and introduce them to the job with a tangible reward desired by others in the player base. It also transfers gil from those of us that have a much higher opportunity cost if we were to gather shards ourselves to those that have few to no gil resources, there by giving that player incentive to continue playing aka paying their sub.

[tocsin]

godlike comment...

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU, you are doing Byregots work. keep it up.

Everyone, go read this, and upvote it. it is the truth of the world.

[HakuroDK]

With inflation creep (more currency continues to enter the economy than exits thereby raising average prices slowly over time) eventually shards would only be bought from npcs. (why should bots in the future mine shards that sell for 50 gil each ((assuming a theoretical npc sells for 51)) when they can mine grade 1 carbonized matter going for a future 300 gil a piece) the bots would move on to other sources of gil. SE only responds to bots to show an effort as players dislike them, but bots pay subscriptions too (yeah, SE makes money off bots, so other than making a show to the player base they try to limit bots, they really don't have an incentive to get rid of them until enough players decide to drop subscriptions because bots made their game un-fun that it over rides the incremental revenue bot account holders generate. If you don't think this is how business works keep dreaming). So, if your gripe is you dislike shard prices, fact is they keep your shard prices lower than what it would be without them. What players want to spend days gathering nothing but shards? If your argument is you dislike bots, they would move on to other items if shards are shut down. If it's because you don't see shards as a gaming activity worth player time, then consider that shards are targeted at brand new players who think "I want to try a gathering job!" and introduce them to the job with a tangible reward desired by others in the player base. It also transfers gil from those of us that have a much higher opportunity cost if we were to gather shards ourselves to those that have few to no gil resources, there by giving that player incentive to continue playing aka paying their sub.

There are a few noticeable problems here.

1. You're assuming gathering shards/crystals is anything like gathering crafting mats. Shards and Crystals are stackable to at 9999, maybe more, each. For that to happen with a raw material like electrum, that would require filling up one's entire inventory and that's it. Not only that, but you can't use Wards on normal crafting materials. You have to use King's Yield, and that is not only more expensive GP-wise, but also only works on a single attempt, making it economically not worth it.

2. You're assuming that the dev team doesn't care about botting. First of all, the dev team are players of the game just like anyone else and play fairly just like everyone else. Second, bots are prohibited by the ToS. If they weren't prohibited, everyone would be using bots. The fact that they are prohibited by the ToS and little is being done about it is less attributed to sub prices (as I am absolutely certain that the players who do bot make up less than 1% of the subscription base, which isn't worth defending.) So here's a question: Why prohibit bots in the ToS if the dev team ultimately doesn't care? That makes no sense and it sounds extremely jaded and cynical of the entire process.

3. My "gripe" is backed up with the solution of selling shards and crystals from beast tribe vendors, which renders them completely worthless to sell on the market boards except for convenience purposes. So no, they would not keep shard prices lower. At least not universally. If I want shards, I want to be able to buy them for 10 gil each at a beast tribe vendor. Crystals? 100 gil sounds fair for those. Clusters wouldn't be sold as they aren't nearly as farmable.

4. Your whole argument seems to be defending botters from an economic standpoint. There are a lot of bots, true, but their numbers nowhere near compare to the number of legitimate players. Why else would there be so much action taken against them? Your argument makes no sense.

5. As for new gatherers, I can guarantee that all of the legitimate gatherers want to level their gatherers ASAP. Farming shards and crystals is not at all the fastest way of doing that. Shards are always Level 1. That means maybe 10XP yield with each gathering attempt, maybe more. With how XP scales, this is not at all lucrative unless you plan on botting while doing other things. Crystals only appear at specific nodes in an area and are Level 30, making them even less lucrative for leveling unless botting. I started mining with a crafting mentality. Mine up all of the ore so I don't have to buy it on the market boards. That was my goal. And you know what? I achieved it. Now I'm mining up Darksteel and doing stuff with it. And I am sure there are miners that try to make a profit from mining, and that they do succeed through legitimate methods. But the fact of the matter is that no legitimate player would ever mine up shards and crystals exclusively to turn a profit. Ever.

[Wintersandman]

...

1. Why yes items only stack to 99 you can easily get 9900 in your bag which a bot wouldn't care about inventory space. Next you don't need as many raw materials as you do shards to do a craft. Which would still flood the market making every other material useless for revenue generation.

2. SE needs to look like their doing something because an ethical player will complain. Which is why they don't seek them out but take action when reported.

3. Beast Tribes? Some people don't want to even bother. Like myself. But ultimately I want to craft.

4. Again this is due to ethical players complaining. SE's job is to make it look like they have done something.

5. I leveled my crafter not through leves but farming zone by zone. Not shards but other raw materials. I would sell some then keep some. I leveled my crafts with my gatherers so what didn't get used got sold. I go gather all my own crystals. I would rather have the abundance that is on the market board.

[kaworutabris]

There are a few noticeable problems here.

1. You're assuming gathering shards/crystals is anything like gathering crafting mats.

1. I think what you're trying to say here is that inventory and selling space of said inventory is a limited resource where shard space is much less limited. This is sort of irrelevant. Bot companies can simply add more accounts to counter this. The number of accounts they can chose to purchase for retainer/inventory space is only limited by how much revenue they can generate selling gil and their other costs.

2. What the dev team cares about is irrelevant when you are talking about terminating accounts. This is driven by managers, not by developers. Telling your shareholders "we canceled 10,000 illegal accounts thereby forfeiting $14.99x10,000x3(months) in revenue" is bad. Saying "we cancelled 1,000 accounts, forfeiting $45,000 in revenue but keeping 30,000 accounts that would have otherwise canceled subscription due to poor gameplay" is ok. What the ToS says is less important to SE than the bottom line. Fact of life. Bots are only a problem to managers when adding 1 more bot account causes the number of accounts cancelled because of bots to exceed the total number of bot accounts.

3. The reason the bots keep shard prices lower is that demand does not change with or without bots. Regardless of bots existing or not the same number of shards are needed by players for their crafting desires. Bots do however, inflate supply. Lets say in theory that 200,000 shards are needed per day by players. Legitimate players provide 150,000 shards per day and bots provide 100,000 shards per day that would not exist without them. So now the undercutting begins until shards are so cheap crafters say "hey, I'll buy more than I need today because its so cheap and I know I need some tomorrow." but now, you get rid of all the bots. We are 50,000 shards per day short of what we need. Well, the wealthiest players will ensure they get the shards they need at a much higher price point because for them to spend time gather the shards themselves they lose out on the millions they could have obtained using the same time to craft (opportunity cost). They ensure they get the shards they need by paying inflated prices until it hits the ceiling price set by the npc you have suggested. So now prices have gone on shards from the lower price on mb to the ceiling price set by npc.

4. I'm not "defending botters" I'm saying your suggestion doesn't solve anything, yet harms new players wanting to "try out" a dol job, lowers the transfer of wealth in the economy and raises shard prices to the npc price

5. They won't level the job if they don't believe there is value in playing the job. Without seeing some tangible reward they will simply chose to not play the game for being un fun.

I know I'm just saying no when you believe you have an idea that you believe will improve the game experience, and it sucks to hear criticism of our ideas. Maybe SE will implement your idea, but if they don't consider this as a possible reason why.

[HakuroDK]

3. Beast Tribes? Some people don't want to even bother. Like myself. But ultimately I want to craft.

That's not a valid reason. Beast Tribes have been around for about a year now and the vast majority of players have had every chance to max them all out. Not only that, but Ixali beast tribe quests are integral to crafting due to Ehcatl Sealant and Xephatol Spring Water.

5. I leveled my crafter not through leves but farming zone by zone. Not shards but other raw materials. I would sell some then keep some. I leveled my crafts with my gatherers so what didn't get used got sold. I go gather all my own crystals. I would rather have the abundance that is on the market board.

You would rather have the "abundance" on the market board rather than being able to buy an infinite amount at a lower cost from an NPC merchant. What?

5. They won't level the job if they don't believe there is value in playing the job. Without seeing some tangible reward they will simply chose to not play the game for being un fun.

There is value in playing the job, that value has absolutely nothing to do with farming shards and crystals to sell, and doing so is the most un-fun thing I can think of in the entire game, nevermind when it comes to gathering. Cobalt, Electrum, Darksteel, Gold, Platinum, and a whole host of other items sell for a mint on the market boards because no one wants to bother with mining themselves. But if you're telling me that mining shards is more fun and lucrative at 40-60 gil each than Cobalt/Electrum at 400-600 gil each, Darksteel/Gold at 500-700 gil each, and Platinum at >900 gil each, that's ridiculous.

I know I'm just saying no when you believe you have an idea that you believe will improve the game experience, and it sucks to hear criticism of our ideas. Maybe SE will implement your idea, but if they don't consider this as a possible reason why.

It's not that you're saying no. It's the cynical attitude towards the development team and the undertones that botting is an acceptable practice that are getting me on-edge in this conversation. You're basically saying--and correct me if I'm wrong--"People bot, no one's going to do anything about it and your suggestion will hurt more players than it will help because shards and crystals are lucrative." Except they're only lucrative to players who soullessly grind for 8+ hours a day for a 100k gil paycheck at the end of said day that I could easily achieve 1.5-fold in less than an hour by doing Beast Tribes and selling Sealants.