SMN mp needs sorting out

[Havenchild]

Seriously, the problem isn't summoner. It is Blm. If it wasn't the only other caster to compare resource management to, this thread wouldn't exist. Melee have the EXACT same resource troubles but it is universal to all melee. That is why there is no complaining about it. The community has accepted it and found a way to deal with the issue. Paeon. If there were enough caster DD classes then party makeups would change to one melee, two casters, and a bard singing ballad when needed.

That is not entirely true. Most people would prefer the option that pushes the most DPS per fight, that would determine the classes that are brought. This generally influences party make-ups as a whole when strict DPS checks are thrown into the mix. Those that can push the bigger numbers with less restrictions will be the main stream comp (DRG situation? Pre -Buff). The only time you generally see things like one melee, two casters and a bard, is when you are forced into these situations via whose available for your static or some other unorthodox method. Very rare are they're fights that heavily favor AoE aspects, which the Caster classes excel at, because it creates terrible imbalance vs the Melee. I do believe Turn 4 alone was the last time we saw something like this.

The only reason people keep casters around in truth? Because of a Caster LB /AoE control, should it have use, otherwise since single target DPS is a heavy thing for most boss fights, classes that excel at single target DPS tend to be preferred.

Melee do not have the same resource troubles in it's entirety either. Invigorate does not hamper your DPS, but rather gives you FREE TP per CD. Energy Drain, DIRECTLY counters your DPS option of using Fester / Bane instead because it's tied into Aetherflow Stacks (you only get 3 / min).

[BlaiseArath]

by other jobs you mean only blackmage right?
because all the tp jobs can/should modify their rotation based on fight length to manage tp. (example not fracturing).

I mention BLM specifically, and I also say "in such severity". As Viridiana explains that part in thorough I'll move on to the next point.

Melee, Tanks, and Ranged DPS benefit from Paeon, while the only ones who benefit from Ballad are SMN and Healers. In most situations, unless the healers are running low, Paeon is going to be heavily favored unless your entire party is SMNs, which just doesnt really happen in static groups, in instances where the MP issue begins to show (FCoB/etc). And giving up Fracture(wat) is not as potent a nerf to damage as losing Ruin and Fester. So as i said in the last sentence, our DPS will tamper out in longer fights, so much so without help, that we lose tremendous DPS.

If there were enough caster DD classes then party makeups would change to one melee, two casters, and a bard singing ballad when needed.

No? They'd take the best Single target DPS still, and as the above poster explains, Casters are mostly kept around for AoE LB and the AoE potential...

I still propose BRD be given a "Pianissimo" type effect thats a song for 1 person only, but wont nerf their damage and cost less MP... at least in the situations where BRD isnt singing Paeon they can give the SMN Ballad without nerfing them.

god XI handled BRD so much better ._. Hell almost every FF ever did lol

Melee do not have the same resource troubles in it's entirety either. Invigorate does not hamper your DPS, but rather gives you FREE TP per CD. Energy Drain, DIRECTLY counters your DPS option of using Fester / Bane instead because it's tied into Aetherflow Stacks (you only get 3 / min).

Perhaps making Energy Drain an off-GCD instead of tied to Aetherflow... but then SCH would be impacted. (though, SCH does use a lot of Aetherflow on Lustrate/etc). Perhaps a 30 second GCD? How much do you think that would go to helping SMN MP?

[Sapphic]

Wouldn't a small cutback on dps for the sake of better sustainability result in better overall dps? Doing slightly less damage for the sake of never having any complete downtime.

As Virdinia said, you could do that, but why when you can take a BLM which has 100% sustainability with zero downtimes to refresh mana?

Whilst pushing progression in FCoB DPS checks are that tight that every single point of DPS from the party matters until you start to over gear it and still it is pretty tight. That small cutback from SMN can make or break a clear.

[DeadRiser]

You mean when they fixed the tooltip so that it correctly described the effects of bane?

AND YOUR POINT?

We should have had it to begin with because black mage AoE potential and capability.

(the more we say it was a thing, the more they think it was a thing, and the more we b**** like dragoons, the more likely it will happen)

[Ryans]

In reality there ARE other caster classes you can compare SMN to... WHM and SCH. The problem is that for optimal DPS output a SMN has the same MP costs as a SCH but without the ability to use Aetherflow for as much MP regen as a SCH does, while at the same time not having a passive such as Shroud that gives a huge boost to MP like the WHM.

BLMs aren't the problem as that class was designed for MP regen through self buffs. SMNs lack this.

So, from there we've got a couple of options. A potency increase in the MP regen ability of Aetherflow (we'll ignore ED as that really shouldn't be used by a SMN if at all possible). Perhaps a Shroud-like buff could be added when Aetherflow is at 3 stacks? OR the SMN MP costs need to be reduced.

The damage output of SMNs is fine so long as they don't run their MP dry as fast as they currently do. If their MP drain was scaled such that it'd hit bottom around the same rate as a WHM does then Ballad could be sync'd between those classes and we'd not have issues with "oh, we don't use Ballad for SMNs".

You can't compare a DD class to a healer class in resource management. That is just stupid. They do completely different things and use their resources in completely different ways. That is why you don't compare a pld to a drg in terms of TP management. Blm is the problem because it is giving everyone here a straw to grasp at to demand a buff. Blm shouldn't be able to go forever no matter the party setup if every other class has limitations. Honestly, if you guys get what you want it is going to dictate every new caster in the game from here on out. They will be required to be self sustaining no matter the situation. Stop trying to ruin the future of an entire archetype.

[Zumi]

When running out of mp use less festers and more energy drain simple as that.

[Eggnook24]

This issue can be fixed with one simple solution. Have one of the new Egi be an mp regenerator for party and self.

[Numenor1379]

You can't compare a DD class to a healer class in resource management. That is just stupid. They do completely different things and use their resources in completely different ways. That is why you don't compare a pld to a drg in terms of TP management. Blm is the problem because it is giving everyone here a straw to grasp at to demand a buff. Blm shouldn't be able to go forever no matter the party setup if every other class has limitations. Honestly, if you guys get what you want it is going to dictate every new caster in the game from here on out. They will be required to be self sustaining no matter the situation. Stop trying to ruin the future of an entire archetype.

You can actually, if you think about how their MP is used and what all three have to do to regain it. SCH/SMN have basically the same regen tools and WHM has Shroud. All three WILL run into MP issues in drawn out fights if they are pushing their classes to the max possible (healing/stance dancing/dpsing). SCH may be able to delay that a bit longer than SMN/WHM but it WILL happen no matter what any of them do. The problem between the three of them now is that SMN will run dry a LOT sooner than the other two, leading to the "not playing Ballad solely for a SMN" issue. Get the SMN MP consumption in line with the healer level and Ballad would be timed appropriately for all three.

As far as the BLM MP system being the problem... whatever you're smoking I want some. Just because a single class has a unique MP system in the game that lets them cast continually, we're to completely gut that class and rebuild it from scratch (taking away that unique system) due to SMNs not being able to do their optimal rotation forever? O_o

That's like burning down the house to kill an ant. You would completely destroy what a BLM is were you to eliminate the Astral/Umbral system. No one is saying that SMNs need to be infinitely self-sustaining like a BLM, people are saying the MP system of the SMN needs to be tweaked to improve their staying power at max DPS levels to match the length of fights the devs are creating.

[Viridiana]

When running out of mp use less festers and more energy drain simple as that.

. . .and fail to do competitive DPS and never be taken for progression content. Sure.

[Krr]

by other jobs you mean only blackmage right?
because all the tp jobs can/should modify their rotation based on fight length to manage tp. (example not fracturing).

All the TP jobs are propped up by Army's Paeon 4 minutes into the fight.

Seriously, does everyone who says 'manage your badly designed DPS resource better' do anything other than run ST? Do y'all know that enrage timers are like, a reasonably harsh thing in non-Echo fights if your DPS aren't pushing at max throughput at all times?