What tank do you like to heal most?

[Ceodore]

...as anyone that's made it that far is at least average at their job...

IDK why I get the feeling it takes a lot to impress you, lol. Generally, a tank who can make it to T9 should hopefully be pretty good. Average generally doesn't make it past T5, and assuming average means the same thing as median, or the middle of the group, then I think you might be forgetting all the thousands of tanks who are reportedly absolutely horrible in the Healing Horror Stories thread, lol. Nah, from my point of view, if you were able to make it to T9 or past, then you are probably doing very well as a tank. Cut them some slack.

...so if you DO look at it this way you'd still be using a lesser Cure to heal the damage over a larger one on PLD...

See, I agreed with you, until you said this. If you're looking at this the way you're saying, it still doesn't actually make sense. The Paladin doesn't take FLAT damage, they take REDUCED damage. There is a huge difference here, and it may be just in the way you worded this statement that I feel like you were mistaken. The healer's heal DOES get boosted on the Warrior, but the Warrior also takes a bigger hit. The healer's heal DOES NOT get boosted on the Paladin, but the paladin takes a smaller hit instead from the same flat damage. I know YOU know the difference. The first is "after the moment" mitigation, the second is "in the moment" mitigation. I also feel you failed, to understand the very fundamental difference in these two. +20% healing is not equal to -20% damage, and I clarified why with numbers and everything here several posts ago. You must realize, while Warriors boost a smaller heal, the Paladin only needs the smaller heal. The only time which a Warrior's buff makes the healer's heal surpass that of the Paladin's mitigation is when the heal itself is already higher than the damage in. Here, check this formula, it's been tested by your handy dandy local math and physics nerd...
For Paladin: Y=(4000-(X-(X*.2)))+Z
Where Y is health, X is damage in, and Z is Healing in.
For Warrior: Y=((4000*.25)-X)+(Z+(Z*.2))
Where Y is health, X is damage in, and Z is healing in. Both tanks have a base HP of 4000. Also, be sure to use PEMDAS.
Both scenarios assume precisely identical tanks with no other modifiers, CDs, or RNG and show that at their core the Paladin is the easier of the two. Healing increase IS NOT equivalent to damage mitigation. IDK how much clearer I can be with my numbers, the math doesn't lie. These scenarios show that with the exact same heal, the Paladin actually recovers a larger % of the HP lost than the warrior does, in fact, even a larger % of their total HP too. Go ahead, do the math. Better yet, allow me to do the math.
Allow me to show a scenario. Assume damage in is 1000, and assume healing in 999, just 1 less than the damage coming in. I will show you why I stated that the difference is only when healing in is greater than damage in does the Warrior's healing boost surpass the Paladin damage reduction.
Paladin
Y=(4000-(1000-(1000*.2)))+999
Y=4199 coming to 199 over healing
Warrior
Y=((4000*.25)-1000)+(999+(999*.2))
Y=5198.8 coming to 198.8 over healing on the Warrior's 5000 HP pool.
Now, to show you when the Warrior healing buff is better... when healing is greater than damage in. Assume damage in 1000 and healing in is 1001.
Paladin
Y=(4000-(1000-(1000*.2)))+1001
Y=4201 coming to 201 over healing
Warrior
Y=((4000*.25)-1000)+(1001+(1001*.2))
Y=5201.2 coming to 201.2 over healing on the Warrior's 5000 HP pool.
I AM aware that there are no decimal places in this game, and that in the first scenario, it would be just a flat 199 over heal for Paladin to a 198 over heal for Warrior and in the second scenario the over healing would be the same. I simply wished to demonstrated the point mathematically at the exact point where the trends of the buffs change and in what way. This illustrates that when the base damage in is greater than the base healing in, the Paladin's buff is better, and that when the base damage in is less than the base healing in, the Warrior's is better. This does not, in now way make either unviable, it simply illustrates that the healing requirement on a Paladin at its core IS slightly less than that of a Warrior in order to keep the HP pool full. In fact, allow me to demonstrate at what point the heal have no over heal and still restore the mitigated damage on a Paladin but not restore the Warrior back to full even with the boost in healing. in the scenario where damage in is a base 1000, The magic number in this situation is 800 base healing in.
Paladin
Y=(4000-(1000-(1000*.2)))+800
Y=4000 No over heal at all, but back to full HP.
Warrior
Y=((4000*.25)-1000)+(800+(800*.2))
Y= 4960 A net loss of 40 HP from the Warrior's 5000 HP pool.
This demonstrates the same base heal in against the same base damage in for both tanks with only the difference being in their toggle buffs, nothing else.
I'm going to tackle another point that's probably going to come up. % loss of your HP pool from base damage in. This is probably better known as spike damage, the visual appearance of how much damage from an HP pool is taken away from a certain amount of damage. For this exercise, we are ignoring healing entirely, we are assuming that both tanks are simply standing and just absorbing damage. The factors that come into play here are the Warrior's +25% HP increase and the Paladin's -20% damage reduction and only variable is the base damage in. So, let's assume two decent ilvl tanks with a base HP of 8000.
The Paladin has the flat 8000 HP, the Warrior has an increased HP of 10000 (8000 + 2000, which is 25% of 8000)
Scenario 1
Both tanks take a hit worth 2000 HP first. Y is amount of HP left.
For Paladin
Y=8000-(2000-(2000*.2))
Y=6400
Y%=6400/8000
Y%=80% of HP pool left
For Warrior
Y=10000-2000
Y=8000
Y%=80% of HP pool left
To make sure that this trend is not just a magic number of 2000, let's change the damage in to 1000.
Y=8000-(1000-(1000*.2))
Y=7200
Y%=7200/8000
Y%=90% of HP pool left
For Warrior
Y=10000-1000
Y=9000
Y%=90% of HP pool left
Let's go the other direction, increase damage in to 3000.
Y=8000-(3000-(3000*.2))
Y=5600
Y%=5600/8000
Y%=70% of HP pool left
For Warrior
Y=10000-3000
Y=7000
Y%=70% of HP pool left
So neither tank actually takes more visual spike damage actually as this trend continues in equal in both directions.

**TL;DR** The above crap doesn't matter anyways, play what you want, cause it's all about da skillz...

Also, nerd alert...

Edit: For size purposes, I've reduced text and removed enter spaces, this really is too much, I know, but I'd like to bury this.

[Blueskyy]

[SIZE="1"]"Snip from your previous post"

Basically all the math is to say that BOTH tanks are balanced in terms of mitigation. To me i shit bricks when i heal a bad warrior because most healers heal based on how much hp has lost. PLD looks tanky because the dmg reduce their Effective hp first before going into their HP while WAR takes all his dmg in his HP.
I play Tank and healer, mainly to improve my WAR by seeing the 2 worlds. I try my best to get IB up for every big hits, use vengeance paired with IB and Thrill of Battle with conv paired with IB while keeping path up if needed. If not I keep eye up for more dmg so that IB and blood bath can do more heal backs. With Warriors now a days doing str build (Including me) it's not surprising to see 1k heal back from ib and addtional 200+ heal back when paired with Blood bath not to forget Second wind heals me about 600. Also for Holmgang, which is 100% less effective than Hollowed i try to help healers by doing heal back too, doing 2k from thrill 1.2k from IB with blood then a 600 second wind bringing me back to 3.8k hp for healers as a kick start. There are people who met bad Warriors that made them hate healing Wars but people who is on another side of the grass patch would love a War as much as they love a PLD if not more.

[Ceodore]

Basically all the math is to say that BOTH tanks are balanced in terms of mitigation. To me i shit bricks when i heal a bad warrior because most healers heal based on how much hp has lost. PLD looks tanky because the dmg reduce their Effective hp first before going into their HP while WAR takes all his dmg in his HP.

Actually, it was all to show that they AREN'T equal in terms of mitigation at their core and why PLD feels more tanky. Really, they both take the same % of damage initially to their HP pool from equivalent attacks, but because of the smaller numerical amount of damage the PLD takes, they are easier to heal back up... Everything else that makes up the class after that is what helps make them both viable, and arguing either one being better than the other in general terms is just pointless due to the massive difference in their ability and skills. It's really like comparing apples to oranges, they are just too different.

Also, as was stated before, the difference between a great Warrior and a bad Warrior is much larger than the difference between a great Paladin and a bad Paladin. A great Warrior is always appreciated, more damage for a faster kill, plus the capability to siphon away VIT for STR without dropping so much HP numerically.

I really also feel I should express the difference here between numerical and relative terms. The warrior switching to STR trinkets from VIT trinkets are giving up the same amount of relative base HP as the Paladin who does the same thing, but numerically, he still looks just as durable with a fairly big HP pool. Those who don't realize the difference feel as though there is none between the Paladin who might still use VIT trinkets and the Warrior who is in STR trinkets. However, anyone who really knows can tell you this is not true, as the relative difference is real.

This actually gets really annoying when the DPS and Healers sit there and yell at me for tanking the boss just because my HP pool is only about 1k less than the warrior. I have even had them say this is the reason too.

[VanilleFang]

This actually gets really annoying when the DPS and Healers sit there and yell at me for tanking the boss just because my HP pool is only about 1k less than the warrior. I have even had them say this is the reason too.

Which is kind of dumb. I don't use HP to determine if a tank is tanky or not (if that makes sense). I always watch to see how fast their HP depletes and if they dodge AoEs and stuff. Lower HP =/= less tanking ability. That's rather ignorant. It's like saying one healer is better than another just because their heals restore more HP.

[Sleigh]

Edit: Something else I'd like to quickly clarify - WAR doesn't actually "spike" more than PLD. WAR takes more damage, and that is mitigated by the increased health. If you think of damage as damage that needs to be healed instead of a percentage of the tank's health, then WAR will look like it needs significantly more healing than it does. WAR's tank stance also increases it's healing received, so if you DO look at it this way you'd still be using a lesser Cure to heal the damage over a larger one on PLD. Basically, pay attention to the % the tank's heal is at, not how much damage they take flat.

It's mainly due to PLD's shield. I'm not suggesting PLD survivability is technically higher than WAR eHP wise or anything like that, but if you throw 3 attacks in succession that bursts down a tank full to near death (or worse, not full to near death or death) there's a pretty good chance PLD will block one of them, or more if lucky. WAR's extra survivability oomph is in its self-heals, the thing people reference when comparing PLD's shield to WAR, but in the case of surviving near death, self-heals don't actually help on average, they're more for sustained survivability.

[Ceodore]

Which is kind of dumb. I don't use HP to determine if a tank is tanky or not (if that makes sense). I always watch to see how fast their HP depletes and if they dodge AoEs and stuff. Lower HP =/= less tanking ability. That's rather ignorant. It's like saying one healer is better than another just because their heals restore more HP.

Precisely! I always use the Examine function to look at another tank, and I really only take into consideration their weapons and their left side gear. Each item, I compare to what I'm using, giving points to the tank for items ilvl equal or greater than my piece, and taking a points for an item ilvl less than my own. If they come out equal to what I'm using, I'll use Sword Oath. If they come out to less than what I'm using, Shield Oath. If it's a trail or raid I don't care about, I don't bother, I just throw on dps trinkets and switch to sword oath, because if it's something I don't care about, it's too easy to bother fighting for MT anyways.

It's mainly due to PLD's shield. I'm not suggesting PLD survivability is technically higher than WAR eHP wise or anything like that, but if you throw 3 attacks in succession that bursts down a tank to near death (or worse, not full to near death or death) there's a pretty good chance PLD will block one of them, or more if lucky. WAR's extra survivability oomph is in its self-heals, the thing people reference when comparing PLD's shield to WAR, but in the case of surviving near death, self-heals don't actually help on average, they're more for sustained survivability.

I kind of have to disagree with this whole statement. First, we can't determine for certain either tank's eHP past their simple toggle buffs, and I've already stated the Paladin's slight advantage in that. All other aspects of both classes simply relies on cooldowns, RNG, and skill, and just simply can not be accounted for without some level of fluctuation and error. Also, the Warrior's self healing is actually what makes their class such a wild card. If used inappropriately, the heals are useless, if used by a skilled Warrior, they are indeed life saving, ESPECIALLY at near death.

[RayneBoemir]

I mean they literally say "Cast ESUNA on me!" Or "Esuna me." Everytime they get Pacification. I can see your stats. I will heal it if I have time. I can understand if it was a notification to warn people it was happening but don't tell me to Esuna you, please.

And I agree on the PLD thing. I find that I have to babysit WARs more often. Not overly so, but it's generally a WAR if I am babysitting a tank.

NIN and DRG are the worst for babysitting though. Get. Out. Of. AoEs.

I used to do a macro but removed it because by the time the healer is finishing casting the spell it's over so it seemed pointless and berserk is up so often I think it was starting to get annoying.

[SpookyGhost]

IDK why I get the feeling it takes a lot to impress you, lol. Generally, a tank who can make it to T9 should hopefully be pretty good. Average generally doesn't make it past T5, and assuming average means the same thing as median, or the middle of the group, then I think you might be forgetting all the thousands of tanks who are reportedly absolutely horrible in the Healing Horror Stories thread, lol. Nah, from my point of view, if you were able to make it to T9 or past, then you are probably doing very well as a tank. Cut them some slack.

Carries exist. I've seen tanks with HA weapons who have no idea what they're doing. I understand the sentiment of "if you can make it past T5 you're average", but it rarely holds true. Maybe I am being a bit too judgmental though.

See, I agreed with you, until you said this. If you're looking at this the way you're saying, it still doesn't actually make sense. The Paladin doesn't take FLAT damage, they take REDUCED damage.

What I meant by this is that if you see a PLD take 2,000 damage flat and a WAR take 2,000 damage flat, it would take less to heal the 2,000 damage the WAR took than the PLD. I'm not saying this was the same attack (as the PLD would take less than 2k damage in that case) but if on separate occurrences a WAR were to take 2k and a PLD were to take 2k the WAR would require a smaller heal than the PLD. This is because of the healing modifier on Defiance. The rest of my post was talking about not healing received, but damage received. It's roughly a 2% healing difference regardless, so that shouldn't be an excuse for PLD's being "easier to heal". WAR's self heals and regens take care of that difference alone.

It's mainly due to PLD's shield. I'm not suggesting PLD survivability is technically higher than WAR eHP wise or anything like that, but if you throw 3 attacks in succession that bursts down a tank to near death (or worse, not full to near death or death) there's a pretty good chance PLD will block one of them, or more if lucky. WAR's extra survivability oomph is in its self-heals, the thing people reference when comparing PLD's shield to WAR, but in the case of surviving near death, self-heals don't actually help on average, they're more for sustained survivability.

While I... sort of agree with this in so much that a PLD has a shield and has more random chance to mitigate damage, it isn't a reliable enough chance to say that they pull ahead enough to warrant being easier to heal. Blocking also only works vs physical attacks, so for moves like Akh Morn (which does actually hit back to back for massive damage) the shield is only useful for the auto attacks in between. I wouldn't say that WAR's self heals are comparable to block either, WAR doesn't really get that much out of self healing - however, IB does work as an on-demand shield block which I do think evens things out a bit.

[Sleigh]

I kind of have to disagree with this whole statement. First, we can't determine for certain either tank's eHP past their simple toggle buffs, and I've already stated the Paladin's slight advantage in that. All other aspects of both classes simply relies on cooldowns, RNG, and skill, and just simply can not be accounted for without some level of fluctuation and error. Also, the Warrior's self healing is actually what makes their class such a wild card. If used inappropriately, the heals are useless, if used by a skilled Warrior, they are indeed life saving, ESPECIALLY at near death.

I'm just talking about the shield vs healing in relation to getting burst down (presumably from a missed CD or a healer being neglectful/dead/otherwise occupied, since ideally nothing can burst you down that can't be planned for), nothing more. I repeat this is not one bit WAR vs PLD overall.

Outside of ToB, WAR self-heals are far too low (75~ HPS from Bloodbath while it's up, roughly 200~ per Storm's Path, roughly 600 per IB, roughly 700 per SW) to stop burst down deaths. None of those can stop a 3K-5K auto-attack after T12 or T13 bosses do their mega attacks; they add up over the course of a fight, but not in clutch scenarios (unless you do in fact eek out just enough to live through the following damage with a small amount of healing). How often have you seen WARs heal themselves to safety in the aforementioned events? I've never seen it.

On the flip side, 30% mitigation of said mega attack or auto-attacks from a PLD shield can upon activation let you survive anywhere from one AA longer to several if the thing blocked was a Revelation/Flatten/Resonance/Critical Rip/whatever. It's a much smaller scaled version of 2.0 WAR vs PLD, where WAR scaled with himself and PLD scaled with incoming damage.

[SpookyGhost]

How often have you seen WARs heal themselves to safety in the aforementioned events? I've never seen it.

I have!



... in 2.0.