The Keeper of the Lake Elder primal

[Anonymoose]

When I call something elder it's been around for-fking-ever, it's big, bad and all kinds of powerful.

Is it possible that only Primals that have been inactive for a long enough period are called Elder?

I always figured the whole Elder Primal thing was quite literal; Bahamut and Odin were summoned and sealed during the Allag times, and have maintained since.

I'd figured it was a few aspects of each of these, at first; primarily that the primal was from a previous era and those who summoned it were lost.

Buuut...

[Fernehalwes] said quite clearly that elder primals are "elders" simply because they've been [worshiped] for that much longer.

Bingo! Ferne helped narrow it down a little bit. The title "elder" is bestowed on primals based on how long it's been since worship of them began. (So far,) everything else still applies, including the need for worshipers if the primal yet lives (which is why Belias' essence was slumbering). The explanation was essentially Fernehalwes and loremaster Banri Oda (who really needs a Voidsent alter ego) drumming up excitement for the 2.4/2.5 patch cycle by saying, "So, that means there must still be some worshipers around... Hmmm! Final Coil? Odin? Please look forward to it!"

When it comes to the primalsplosion, I've got more "Probably nots" than "probablys," unfortunately. We'll get there, though!

[StarDrake]

It also needs to be remembered that, frankly, the 1.0 intro video is very nearly an unreliable source these days; it got a bunch of details, large and small, about 1.0 wrong due to shifting development priorities and design alterations. I would not be surprised at all to learn that what was originally planned for 1.0 concerning the Primals and the release of the seal was not at all what actually went into the game in 1.0 and ARR; from trailers, in fact, we know an entire questline, including multiple involved cutscenes, concerning Titan never made it into 1.0, even before the earthquake disaster.

At this point I'm not willing to speculate on the primalsplosion at all, simply because so much has changed behind the scenes. Hopefully 2.5 will clarify things, but right now it's unclear what, if anything, should even be taken from that intro video anymore (aside from the fact that Elezen Are Snooty).

[treuhavik]

I always figured the whole Elder Primal thing was quite literal; Bahamut and Odin were summoned and sealed during the Allag times, and have maintained since. Bahamut certainly, Odin is a bit of an oddity but I don't think we actually defeat him in the FATE, maybe in the upcoming Trial. Meanwhile, Ifrit et al are continually being defeated and resummoned. Their physical "lives" end almost as soon as they begin, while Odin and Bahamut have "lived" for eras. How does Belias fit into that? Well, he maintained physical form for a significant amount of time, thus becoming "Elder", before finally being put down and forgotten. Alternatively Belias, like Odin and Bahamut, maintains a physical form to this day and when he was described as a "slumbering elder primal", he literally is slumbering in some corner of Hydaelyn.

Kinda like a Primal leveling system;

Bahamut, summoned and undefeated for X years, leveled up to Elder Primal.
Ifrit, summoned and defeated in 5 minutes, still a Primal.

It could explain why Primals are so intent on being summoned and maintaining physical form. The longer they're out, the stronger they get.

I really dig this theory. It's 100% true that the longer they maintain their physical form, the more powerful they become. This is because they have to have a supply of aether to keep them in that state, and, well, aether = primal-power-up-juice.

By this theory, Garuda probably would have become one herself, had we not stopped her, given she was out consuming aether/worship for a little over 5 years.


But...you're probably right. It isn't worth speculating when we'll never have anything to back it up one way or another.

.....so, what were we talking about? Midgardsormr? Yeah..he wasn't ever a primal, just a B.A. Dragon King. I find it interesting that the twelve made him, lends itself nicely to my Greek Mythology relation.

[Anonymoose]

we know an entire questline, including multiple involved cutscenes, concerning Titan never made it into 1.0

The Titan quests didn't make it into the game, but they did make it into the game's data, which was then mined to build several 2010/2011 database websites and blogs and such. No one ever really paid them much mind, and then they were forgotten about entirely, and now they've all been deleted. But that's not to say that the possibility isn't on the table that I might know someone who potentially has a copy of the transcripts who might not withhold sharing them from someone willing to translate them from Japanese. <speaks directly into the sandwich> Theoretically.

Maybe artiespay that were interestedway could ontactcay me off of the orumsfay. Ypotheticallyhay.

I find it interesting that the twelve made him, lends itself nicely to my Greek Mythology relation.

If you're looking for speculation fodder, the Wikipedia articles on the Dragons in Greek Mythology, Primordials > Titans > Olympians, giants, etc. are all full of possibilities. If you keep it vague, it's almost a direct parallel (but then, what isn't, when vague, right?)

[treuhavik]

If you're looking for speculation fodder, the Wikipedia articles on the Dragons in Greek Mythology, Primordials > Titans > Olympians, giants, etc. are all full of possibilities.

Oh, it's not just dragons. I relate the twelve themselves to the Gods/Goddesses of Greek Mythos. Let me see if I can find...that post....

EDIT:

It begins with Chaos, a yawning nothingness (FFXIV "Ascian Balance"). Out of the void emerged Gaia (the Earth [FFXIV Hydealyn]) and some other primary divine beings: Eros (Love), the Abyss (the Tartarus), and the Erebus. Without male assistance, Gaia gave birth to Uranus (the Sky [FFXIV Zodiark]) who then fertilized her. From that union were born first the Titans—six males: Coeus, Crius, Cronus, Hyperion, Iapetus, and Oceanus; and six females: Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Rhea, Theia, Themis, and Tethys (= 12). After Cronus was born, Gaia and Uranus decreed no more Titans were to be born. They were followed by the one-eyed Cyclopes and the Hecatonchires or Hundred-Handed Ones, who were both thrown into Tartarus by Uranus. This made Gaia furious (Que the power struggle between Hydealyn and Zodiark).

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...other-Hydaelyn

It's rough and a little dated, but you get the idea.

[Anonymoose]

you get the idea.

Exactly! Though it's tough to say which set is which. I find it interesting that 14 primordials make the "big list" and there are 14 Ascian Hall pedestals, but then which set of Twelve gods represents the Twelve? Titans? Olympians? Or does XIV never take it that specifically? Still, same general idea. From the Void comes the world, and with it the original powers, and then the cycles of Gods, the age of Gods and Men, and finally the withdrawal of the Gods leading into the Age of Heroes, culminating in the rise of the great city-states and the invasion of a great Empire.

[treuhavik]

Exactly! Though it's tough to say which set is which. I find it interesting that 14 primordials make the "big list" and there are 14 Ascian Hall pedestals, but then which set of Twelve gods represents the Twelve? Titans? Olympians? Or does XIV never take it that specifically? Still, same general idea. From the Void comes the world, and with it the original powers, and then the cycles of Gods, the age of Gods and Men, and finally the withdrawal of the Gods leading into the Age of Heroes, culminating in the rise of the great city-states and the invasion of a great Empire.

Don't forget to account for Hydaelyn, Zodiark and the the-two-made-one (if they were, in fact, one at some point). Which would lead me to believe that 'Gaia' didn't birth 'Uranus' but rather, he split from her. That leaves 8 primordial deities. The Twelve make sense as Titans, six pairs, one per element in XIV. Where would the primals fit in there though...?

We should probably figure out the hierarchy of Eorzean deities. Do we think Void > Hydaelyn/Zodiark > Twelve > Ascian > Primals? Or do we need to cement a connection to find the hierarchy?

Yay, More futile conjecture!

[Anonymoose]

Do we think Void > Hydaelyn/Zodiark > Twelve > Ascian > Primals? Or do we need to cement a connection to find the hierarchy?

I think Void > Hydaelyn is nearly a given. In Final Fantasy mythology, The Great Crystal, The Mothercrystal, etc. is the source of the world. In the Void, the Crystal's dreams, visions, and creations shape our reality; a protected bubble of Light in the Darkness (or in Chaos, if Darkness is opposite light as balance). The Empire once brought children of Ala Mhigo to the wasteland Mor Dhona had become as part of their indoctrination - a way to open their eyes to the severity of the primal threat and enkindle loyalty to Garlemald's cause. One line always stood out to me:

Believe thyself. Believe thy strength. Know thyself. Know thy weakness. Thou art alone. One against many. The land is alone. One star in the void. See through the lies. See beyond the words of deceivers. Follow the truth. Follow the whispers of verity. Protect that which must be. Destroy that which must not.For Calamity draws nigh. The End is upon thee!

Flash forward to A Realm Reborn and the revelation that Hydaelyn is the source of the Echo, and every promotion starts the same

In darkness, the crystal dreams...

The rest of it is too jagged to stack cleanly. It's a mess due to not having enough of the false legends and points of view filtered out.

You've got the legends that the Wandering Races came to Eorzea and were taken under the protection of the Twelve, and that the First Umbral Era brought to a close the Age of the Gods. The Ascians want to return the planet to its "original form," the way it "should always have been." So the Ascians seem to believe they predate Hydaelyn, or at least the world that she created. The Ascians also act as through they are the architects of The Rejoining, attempts at which there have been seven, which we call Calamity and the Ascians call Ardor. So, at least some order can be ascertained there.

The primals are iffy, though. We're told that primals can only be summoned to our world when the boundaries of reality are weakened by a Calamity. Therefore, one might assume that the First Umbral Era is the earliest primals could have existed. How, then, does Ramuh know what it was like before man was born? He claims that, once, no such duality of light and dark existed. It doesn't sound like he's relaying information he was told, it sounds like he's lamenting a painful truth he knows to be fact. How does he know this information? Not only is he not an elder primal, but the Ascians specifically said that man survived seven Umbral Eras. That implies we lived in the time of the Gods, before the creation of primals by man was theoretically possible. That question has an answer, and whatever it is likely plays heavily into solving this puzzle, as any solution to it rules out a ton of current suggested possibilities and gives us a more rigid framework within which to theorize. Perhaps it all goes back to the beginning. The more we learn about primals, the less primal-ey they become...

But then you come back to the Twelve. If they left before the First Umbral Era, what was up with the Allagan Runestones with the symbols of the Twelve on them? The symbol for Menphina, today, represents The Keeper of the Twin Moons, except one of the moons in that legend is Dalamud and I'm almost kind of pretty sure the Allag didn't think Dalamud was the holy creation of a deity that ascended three eras before they existed. Something's up!

If I had to guess, I'd start with the theory that Hydaelyn is in the Aetherial Realm, giving rise to the Corporeal Realm. All things corporeal are by her design, and life comes from her into it and returns to her out of it in an eternal cycle. Destroying the corporeal realm's aetherial balance, I believe, causes the rules governing it, established by the Crystal, to unravel - allowing those within it to manipulate it as she would. Whereas usually only Her intent would be strong enough to morph aether into creation, our belief is strong enough when Her rules are weakened.

Using that theory as a basis, I assume that whatever led the Crystal to create this world, the Ascians feel that it was not meant to be and want to see it undone. They destabilize Her corporeal realm, she creates champions to defend it, and the Ascians force Her to defend those champions while her world is unraveling, hoping that it will all collapse and Her light will fade. But, going back to Lahabrea in the Ultimate Weapon, he blames Hydaelyn for the imbalance and says that burning her out will redress the imbalance as Zodiark is reborn. This goes back to Elidibus claiming that if we knew the whole truth, we'd be on the same side. What did Hydealyn do? Is the Mothercrystal not the personification of goodness afterall? Or are we being lied to?

How their immortality and worship of Zodiark plays into it, I'm not entirely sure, yet. The artbook revealed some interesting things, though. Zodiark's statue in Ascian Hall was specifically designed to be the same color as the dark crystal we saw. Moreover, Zodiark's statue has both wings and a tail. As we go into 2.5, I grow increasingly suspicious that Zodiark represents the serpent just as the dragons rise... That symbol on the front of Lahabrea's outfit does look a little like a tribal dragon head, but that's likely just biased perception... <glances over at darksteelfoil hat>

I wonder what Nabriales and Midgardsormr will reveal...

EDIT FOR DARKSTEELFOIL HAT THEORY
Once, in FFXIV, everything was about the elements and polarities. What if that was the original key? Fire, Earth, Wind, Water, Lightning, and Ice - grafted to the beliefs of the realms inhabitants by the Asians and twisted upon summoning until the realm was weak enough to create primals such as Bahamut, Moggle, and Phoenix? What if Saint Shiva was a true primal power of Ice harnessed with belief untwisted by Ascian intervention? What if Belias was created by summoning twisted fire, the same as Ifrit? The whole Elder / Not Elder distinction becomes meaningless, as the only difference between them is how they were twisted, but a common thread exists between them, perhaps seen in their near-identical egi. BAH looking through everything I know with this filter on is going to be a godsdamned time vampire.

[treuhavik]

EDIT FOR DARKSTEELFOIL HAT THEORY

I lol'd. I thought you'd resist when you looked toward the hat, but you just couldn't.

The time-vampire gets me every time I start thinking about the twelve, idk how many theories I've cooked up. I've got another on the primals and twelve I posted recently somewhere. It seems like a close match to yours - I'll dig it up for ya...

EDIT FOR THE QUOTE!

What if....the twelve are the only, and I'm using this term loosely, real entities... These "primals" are just a primitive, or primal, fragment of them?

Let's say Rhalgar is a Black Mage (a stretch, I know /sarcasm) and Ifrit is or was some creature that was imbued with the all aggressive, ever destructive fire traits of him. Lady Iceheart was imbued with some power of Halone, using this St. Shiva as a connection between the two (Perhaps the echo gave Iceheart the power necessary to make this connection). King Mog could have just been a moogle, a highly thought of moogle, but just a regular moogle all-in-all. When the moogles became distressed, they looked to and prayed to their king, effectively granting him some god-like powers from, say, Athlyk maybe.

It's entirely possible that when the Ascians taught summoning to the beast tribes, they showed them only how to call on the negative sides of the twelve in order to further their scheme. To go along with this theory, there would also be purely positive aspects of the them, as well as the god as a whole (which no one yet has been successful in summoning).

Is your mind still intact? If so, what is it thinking?

As far as the Greek parallel, it's Chaos (Void) creates Gaia (Hydaelyn) who creates Uranus (Zodiark). Together they create the twelve titans. BUT, there's another set of twelve that go unmentioned in most of the common stories - the twelve created by Darkness (Erebus) and Night (Nyx). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_...the_Greek_gods

[TinyRedLeaf]

The primals are iffy, though. We're told that primals can only be summoned to our world when the boundaries of reality are weakened by a Calamity. Therefore, one might assume that the First Umbral Era is the earliest primals could have existed. How, then, does Ramuh know what it was like before man was born?

For me, it always leads back to the theory that the the primal essences were born into the aether of the beast tribes worship and it just didn't become feasible to summon them until the aetheric streams were warped by the breaking of the seal.

I believe a plausible theory had been suggested by others in this forum and, to a certain extent, it echoes what WellFooled had talked about earlier, namely about the difference between the Old and new Gods of Greek and Norse mythologies.

What if each primal is no more than an aspect of a larger idea? For example, Belias and Ifrit could both be the avatars of fire, except that Belias is the far older aspect of the element, conceived by worshippers who are now long extinct.

This wouldn't violate the explanation for elder primals, as long as we regard each avatar or aspect as an individual in his own right. More conveniently, this would explain why Belias looked like to a bigger, darker version of an Ifrit-egi — they come from the same essence, "fire", but represent different cultural conceptions of the element.

This isn't as radical as one might think. Real-life scholars of religion and mythology have long noticed that many of the gods in our history share similar characteristics, and they have suggested it's possible that the gods of one culture became the gods of another culture through assimilation or conquest. All it took were a few tweaks to suit local quirks and, voila, a "new" god is born.

Take, for example, the goddess Guanyin of East Asian religion. "She" was originally a male bodhisattva in Indian forms of Buddhism. They were originally one and the same, but through cultural osmosis, they effectively became two very different entities.

Guanyin and Avalokitesvara are aspects of mercy. They are not the same, but they do represent the same idea. And Avalokitesvara is clearly the "elder" of the two, having been conceived earlier and worshipped far longer. And if some cataclysm were to wipe out the worshippers of either entity (*touch wood*), he or she would literally "die out", as there would be no one left to remember him or her.

But the concept of mercy is immortal. You can't kill it any more than you can kill the physical reality of day and night. The aspects may die, but their "essence" will remain as long as there are humans around to "know" them.

Now, thinking along the same lines in an Eorzean context, it may be the case that an older aspect of lightning (or perhaps "lightning" itself) witnessed the time before man arrived to the world, when the duality of light and darkness did not yet exist. This could be the primordial event that Ramuh, the modern incarnation of lightning, recalls when he speaks to the Warrior of Light for the first time.