Questiona about Mother Hydaelyn

[treuhavik]

Well the primal wouldn't be dead by my theory, see. It would just be trapped in the aethreal realm. So, for us, the players and Eorzea, it would be awesome if they were forgotten. Then again, how long would it be until someone else prayed to a pile of shiny rocks...?

[TinyRedLeaf]

Well the primal wouldn't be dead by my theory, see. It would just be trapped in the aethreal realm.

But that's why I asked which came first, the believer or the primal.

If no one believes in the primal, who would even know about it, let alone summon it?

For all intents and purposes, a forgotten primal is a non-existent primal. It's as good as dead.

This little conundrum is really a variation of the good ol' story: If there's no one around to hear the tree fall, did the tree fall?

What do we really know? What actually is "knowledge"?

Many apologies for this digression, though. To return to the original question, we really don't know much about Hydaelyn's relation to Zodiark. I'm particularly curious about how much Ramuh actually knows of the time before mortals were created. Because if there were no mortals around who believed in him, how did he exist in the first place to remember the time before history?

Patch 2.4 spoiler, about the fate of the Students of Baldesion:

We have the first mention of a phenomenon called the "Rejoining".

That sounds suspiciously like a concept that has appeared in earlier Final Fantasy games, where the antagonists yearn to return to a nihilistic "singularity", which is presumably the state of "existence" when time began.

Why anyone would want to return to such a state of nothingness is beyond my ability to understand.

[treuhavik]

We have the first mention of a phenomenon called the "Rejoining".

That sounds suspiciously like a concept that has appeared in earlier Final Fantasy games, where the antagonists yearn to return to a nihilistic "singularity", which is presumably the state of "existence" when time began.

Why anyone would want to return to such a state of nothingness is beyond my ability to understand.

Is this not also what the Ascians want more or less?

[Kyle2006]

But that's why I asked which came first, the believer or the primal.

If no one believes in the primal, who would even know about it, let alone summon it?

I believe that primals are initially summoned through worship of elements and forces of nature, to primitive people forces of nature would seem god like, that is why in irl there are many religions that associate their gods with certain elements. That is why most primals are associated with elements. Non elemental primals like Odin (and possible King Moogle Mog) were summoned through peoples beliefs in their legends, (haven't played 2.4 story yet but Shiva sounds like a mix of legend and elemental worship), I believe Bahamut was created (if he is not originally some legendary dragon) through dragon worship, once again to primitive men dragons would have seemed like a powerful force of nature unto themselves. I believe Hydaelyn and Zodiark were the first "primals"/"gods" to be given form from the aether.

As for the Rejoining, it sounds like what I believed the Ascians plans were in my theory 1 page back.

[TinyRedLeaf]

I believe Bahamut was created (if he is not originally some legendary dragon) through dragon worship.

I haven't played far enough into the Coils of Bahamut to know for sure.

I believe Hydaelyn and Zodiark were the first "primals"/"gods" to be given form from the aether.

But, like others have asked, who created Hydaelyn and Zodiark?

I don't think the "mothercrystals" are gods the way the mortals understand the concept. They are Creation itself.

Metaphorically, darkness exists because light casts a shadow. The MSQ alluded to this. You can't have one without the other.

Which suggests that existence is already balanced, as long as neither side attempts to outshine or overshadow each other.

I believe that primals are initially summoned through worship of elements and forces of nature, to primitive people forces of nature would seem god like.

Here's a thought: Unlike the primals, the Twelve do not appear to have physical forms. Worshippers believe they are a family of sorts with various relationships to each other, but we don't have that many visual representations of any of the Twelve. For example, Nophica is thought to be a matron, but we don't actually see that many statues of Nophica. (There's that Twin Adder recruitment poster portraying her as a busty young woman, though.)

My wild guess would be that the Twelve are the first, primaeval personifications of the elements. Over time, beliefs about the elements began to multiply, just like what happens when information that gets passed down through the telephone game. Each iteration brings a slightly different version of the way each element is to be personifed, and lo, the primals were born.

In short, perhaps the Twelve and the primals are one and the same? They're all aspects of the elements, each a slightly different representation of an element, as perceived by believers of the day.

[Korinth]

While all of these various theories are very interesting, there are a few flaws in them I feel I should point out.

1. Ramuh clearly states that he existed before man. Outright pontificates on the subject. This is easily accepted by the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, formost experts on Primals. The manifestation of both Shiva and Good King Moggle Mog are the aberrations to the known order of existing Primals. My personal theory is that summoning a Primal-like entity such as them actually does just that, Shiva was a living Elezen, and her soul would have passed into the Aetherial realm when she died. And Good King Moggle Mog, whilst unlikely to have actually transported moogles from the divine realm, also apparently existed at some point in time. Furthermore, Iceheart is referred to as 'the Vessel', and her failure is apparently something that will please Lahbraea. She is also apparently the only one the Heretics can use to summon Shiva, and she retains control over the abilities granted to her. My thoughts on that are that she is the rebirth of said woman, and 'The Echo' is a remnant of past mortal lives of significance. Mortal Primals, if you will.

2. From the ending Cinematic of the original story quests (After Defeating Van Baelsar) Zodiark is referred to being 'returned', rather than existing alongside Hydaelyn. And then the Warrior of Light has a vision of the Mothercrystal overtaken by Darkness. My theory is that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are -both- the mothercrystal, but which one is it at a given time depends on the balance of Darkness and Light.

[treuhavik]

While all of these various theories are very interesting, there are a few flaws in them I feel I should point out.

lol Any theory you read of mine is 90% likely to be complete BS. I let my imagination get the better of me more often than not.

However, we're actually never told if beastmen, dragon races included, are considered "men". What we do know is that some primals were created before man, perhaps during the time beasts became sentient, and others (Shiva) were created after.

When it comes to Hydealyn, Zodiark and the Twelve, I can't help but think of Greek Mythology...

It begins with Chaos, a yawning nothingness (FFXIV "Ascian Balance"). Out of the void emerged Gaia (the Earth [FFXIV Hydealyn]) and some other primary divine beings: Eros (Love), the Abyss (the Tartarus), and the Erebus. Without male assistance, Gaia gave birth to Uranus (the Sky [FFXIV Zodiark]) who then fertilized her. From that union were born first the Titans—six males: Coeus, Crius, Cronus, Hyperion, Iapetus, and Oceanus; and six females: Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Rhea, Theia, Themis, and Tethys (= 12). After Cronus was born, Gaia and Uranus decreed no more Titans were to be born. They were followed by the one-eyed Cyclopes and the Hecatonchires or Hundred-Handed Ones, who were both thrown into Tartarus by Uranus. This made Gaia furious (Que the power struggle between Hydealyn and Zodiark).

[Morningstar1337]

snip

I think that the Primals are more like the Titans (including the one explicitly named titan) and the Twelve are analogues to the Olympians, a set of 12 successor gods that overthrew the titans in a battle called the Titanomachy. The only difference is that as far as I know, the Twelve never battled the Primals.

Interestingly we never seem to have any lore that explores the individual gods, making them more like The Delightful Chidren From Down the Lane from KND, mutltiple charaters that are so flat that they might as well be one character storywise, and are treated as such most of the time.

[Mishini_Dracoto]

I am goin to rewind and step back from FFXIV as I post my response. Over the span of the enire Final Fantasy series there is an overarching story/theme linking crystals / shards / magicite / etc as the source of energy & power. Instead of worrying about deforestation or fracking, in the Final Fantasy Series, the accompanying theme is the over use of crystals / shards, overdrawing the power from the earth/planet (by extraction, similar to mining/logging). When OP asks about 'Mother Hydaelyn' I take this 100% akin to saying 'mother earth.' I believe all living things in Eorzea have some Aetheric Energies (my vision fo their aetheric goggles is akin to thermal goggles, everythin radiates SOME aetheric energy) This Aetheric Energy is literally the power of the crystals. If you were to suck all the power of the world and re-condense it back into one meta-crystal of power, the result would be Hydaelyn. Which is also why we vision her floating in space (in order to her to exist at some sort of full capacity, nothing else on the planet would exist, the entirety of the planet is actually Hydaelyn)

The people who pointed a Ramuh plot I would bellieve are correct, at least in the way that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are light and dark, and almost exist as parrallel universes. wherin the 'fathercrystal' is Zodiark, and the Ascians are the Wariors of Darkness. I will agree that this does not necessarily make them evil, but from a saving Eorzea sandpoint, their goals would be evil by our standpoint, even though in the greater scheme of things, they are actually presented in a very druidic manner / seeking to restore balance.

I don' think I have the capacity to continue answering our question at the moment, my brain keeps wandering off o a philosophical tangent about how we are ACTUALLY the warriors of darkness, or at least the warriors of evil, for our planet is filled with and ruled by evil. the citizens of Eorzea are a very selfish lot, save room for exceptions with the Scions and a few others. The fabled Warriors of light as heroes from the perspective of selfish evil people. We are saving the bad guys! Our Rebellion against he Ascians is childish.

But then, look at where he story started. Where did the Warriors of Ligh reall come from? we all arrived at some city sate via a chocobo-drawn carraige. Where were we before that? Even if you say you've been to the Cit State before, you're reated as a newcomer. a Random adventurer, appeared . . . out of the Aether?!

maybe, MAYBE, we are also Primals?! !? Our existence borne from the dreams of people wishin for a savior. because there was enough people around the whole planet, crystals from the entire planet were used to create the primal / warrior of light, and thus they were not needed to be heaped in one big fat pile.

This makes little sense however to the current plot. These anomolies of Primals can't really include Warriors of light and dark / scions or Ascians. Instead I contend that we are servents/minions of our respective crystal. Hydaelynn and Zodiark are the same and yet opposites. Where Hydaelynn is a giver of life, and a planet, Zodiark is a void, which bings only death


References for overarching theme, I'll draw upon my mos recently replayed game and poin to FFVII, Midgard / Lifa Stream. (literally, liquid life-giving, source of all power, that lows nderneath the surface of he planet giving power to all things)
FFIX, The Lifa Tree, somebody else mentioned i in here.