The Keeper of the Lake Elder primal

[KiritoKhun]

oops didnt mean to post it twice

[lololink]

So if they were sealed could we re-seal them?

We could, if we had the same level of technology as the allagan empire and their years in developping Anti-Primal devices ( Ultima Weapon and the seal of the lake )

[LineageRazor]

So if they were sealed could we re-seal them?

In-story, the NPCs (and our players) would LOVE to re-seal them, and doubtless there are countless people researching Allagan technology off-screen in the hopes of doing just that. It likely will never happen, though; the Summons are a staple part of Final Fantasy tradition, and it's doubtful SE would change the game in such a way that Summons were permanently removed.

If SE was really bold, though, they COULD do this - and in some turn of plot give us other ways to interact with the Primals. Perhaps battling them on their own turf in the Aether... It'd take a great deal of magical technobabble to pull that one off, though!

[PArcher]

Perhaps battling them on their own turf in the Aether... It'd take a great deal of magical technobabble to pull that one off, though!

Isn't that a good approximation of what happens in a pretty spoiler-y fight in FCoB?

[Sapphic]

snip

If the primals had been sealed in the lake (under the lake?). Then it kinda adds a sense of Irony that the Garleans, who want to destroy all primals where an indirect cause, due to their actions, of the primals actually being released from where they were sealed.

Doesn't seem improbable that the Allagans where able to seal away lesser primals if they where able to contain and restrain Elder primals.

[Anonymoose]

Then it kinda adds a sense of Irony

Exactly! Though, one could argue that the irony exists regardless of semantics like whether primals or just aether (or a third option) were sealed. Either way, they achieved the exact opposite of their goals (and perhaps worse). Even Nael van Darnus' meteor project was steeped in that irony. "Just gonna drop this moon and there will be no more primals." <primal breaks out of the moon> "OH, COME ON."

Doesn't seem improbable that the Allagans where able to seal away lesser primals if they where able to contain and restrain Elder primals.

Not at all! Makes a lot of sense, even has some parallels. But here's the logical bottleneck for me: If the primals themselves, as individual existences, were sealed, then the Allagan sealed Ifrit and Titan, who were visible in the scene. That would make them roughly as old as Bahamut, and therefore they'd be Elder Primals - but they're not (inb4 theory that the Ifrit and Titan were actually Belias and Hashmal because Belias-egi looks just like Ifrit-egi). I can find a way around a lot of things, but I can't find a way around that. For me, it always leads back to the theory that the the primal essences were born into the aether of the beast tribes worship and it just didn't become feasible to summon them until the aetheric streams were warped by the breaking of the seal.

[Enkidoh]

I can't either. Also need to remember XIV 1.0 's "Futures Perfect" Story Mission proved that some of the Garlean Hardware still worked in the Agrius even after it's destruction. It might play a role in the new dungeon as well.

That's actually incorrect - that blast that Gaius summoned to make his getaway during Future's Perfect wasn't actually from the Agrius, as it's an abandoned, completely inoperable wreck, but another airship that he had hovering directly overhead (earlier in that same cutscene just before Gaius engaged the Archons you could just see it obscured in mist in front of the wreck of the Agrius. In case there is still doubt about this here's some screenshots of that scene that quite clearly show that cannon salvo comes from another Garlean airship hovering above:




So yeah, the Agrius is pretty defunct by the present day - that doesn't mean it still wouldn't make for an awesome dungeon I'll give you that.

[Nalien]

So if they were sealed could we re-seal them?

Going off the Ramuh Main Scenario quests, I'd say it's more likely we'd use the technique to seal the Ascians, considering Primal Summoning is a planned thing. Perhaps the Ascians were even sealed there originally instead, they did teach the beast tribes how to summon after the fall I believe? There were Ascians in the introductory Echo section of the 1.0 quests, but we don't know how many. There does seem to have been a pick up in Ascian activity after the Battle of Silvertear Skies (if I'm correct about them teaching tribes after the battle), so perhaps a few avoided being sealed and set the events into motion to free the rest. Also... 1.0s Limsa story revolved around a horn used to wake the sea serpent seen in the opening, correct? That same horn was stolen by an Ascian towards the conclusion, and all of that took place in an Echo before the Battle for Silvertear Skies? Ascian steals horn which can wake sleeping serpents > goes to Silvertear Lake to wake Midgardsormr who was said to sleep in the lake, just as the Garleans arrive > the Garleans and the guardian of the lake (what was he guarding?) defeat each other and something is released, justasplanned.png

Regardless, from what I remember of the Ramuh quests, Ascians are similar enough to Primals that we could probably seal them in the same way, assuming there was ever actually a seal to begin with.

Given Icehearts parting words, I'm guessing this is all just leading to us being able to summon Primals as she did, though. The Allagan created the Summoner Job, so we know they had a passing interest in summoning Primals themselves with magic. Suppose the Echo was their missing link stopping them from properly summoning a Primal "perfectly", meaning we can summon Primals Iceheart style whereas they never could. Perhaps they attempted it without Echo and that is how Odin originated (his dialog suggests to me that he was once a man). Perhaps that failure lead to them taking a technological approach instead. Ultima Weapon already "captured" Ifrit/Titan/Garuda and utilized them in combat, perhaps their Weapons captured Primals and they analyzed them to consider their worth (Omega Weapon was used to subdue Bahamut, and they saw his worth as a orbital fusion reactor), worthless ones were permanently stored at what is now Silvertear Lake (which is right next to Crystal Tower, hint hint). Basically the Allagan were the Ghostbusters, and the Silvertear Seal was the Ecto-Containment System...

I'm guessing that whatever we find at The Keeper will be a "perfect" summoning method. It felt like Iceheart had Shiva on a leash (some nice imagery for you all), while it took a lot of Aether/Crystals for her to summon Shiva, she wasn't out of control and I imagine once Iceheart was done she could just hit dismiss and all that Aether would return to the planet without the need for a fight. When the beast tribes summon Primals, which they did so under the instructions of the Ascians, they're not on a leash. The summoning the Ascians taught was an "imperfect" summoning, which gives the summoned free reign to do whatever they want, and when you're the elemental aspect of fire all you want to do is burn (for example), which is bad for us, but exactly what the Ascians want.

Kind of makes me wonder if The Keeper of the Lake (Dungeon) will involve Ascian based enemies... If we're their to learn something which can foil their plans, it only makes sense for them to be there to stop us. I'd be down for a rematch with Lahabrea, assuming he grew a pair this time.

[Sapphic]

Kind of makes me wonder if The Keeper of the Lake (Dungeon) will involve Ascian based enemies... If we're their to learn something which can foil their plans, it only makes sense for them to be there to stop us. I'd be down for a rematch with Lahabrea, assuming he grew a pair this time.

I'm still going with my theory that the next Ascian we get to fight is the one shown in the main scenario as "the power behind the throne" in Ishgard as I very much doubt that he would allow us free access to Ishgard while still pulling the strings.Removing that threat would unveil their eyes, so to speak.

Which beggars the question of when did that Ascian actually assume that mantel? Is it tied directly to Ishgard splitting from the alliance and shutting their doors to the outside?

Has the Ascians plans been in planning for ages that, maybe they where the cause of Xandes mad lust for power which led to the destruction of the Allag Empire? How far back, do we know, does the Ascians go?

Did they exist during the Allag Empire or created during? A top of my head thought Warriors of light where "the enemy" Xande feared, but when he tapped into the dark power that destroyed the Allag Empire the backlash corrupted the Original Warriors of light, turning them into Warriors of dark "Ascians" ^_^

[Alberel]

I can't see Midgarsormr being a dungeon boss, it's more likely that there will be a strong beast inside the Agrius though.

Given that he's the dragon in the logo for the expansion I would say if anything we'll see him resurrected as a result of that dungeon. Given Iceheart's words after defeating her I believe she received an echo vision from Midgardsormr that revealed to her the truth about the origins of the Ishgard/Dravania war. I'm expecting that we'll receive the same vision at the end of the dungeon and it will cause us to turn on the Holy See much as Iceheart did.