About Ninja Adjustment

[BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY]

I don't want to question your math, i guess it's all correct and respect the time you put into it. I personally assume that a trashmob will barely live any longer than 10 seconds though, so the 3 second nin burst from katon xx kassatsu, katon (crit) is weighted pretty high. That's also the reason I didn't even mention doton for nin aoe, because it's a dps loss if mobs die fast. I also assume that i handle my ninjutsu cooldowns in a way that huton is up at all times, because that's what i do.

Out of interest, where do you take the monk 'burst' from? Do you mean pb + rock breaker spam x5?

i completely understand. but that is also situational. many large pulls, in my experiences, lasts for at least 30 seconds. however, since the lift on item-level sync i have seen some serious damage out there. have even seen a player literally one hit K.O. something before. probably a DRG finishing a Full Thrust combo with a critical. it was a melee player that much i remember.

and yeah Blood for Blood + Perfect Balance with already having Greased Lightning III allows MNK a rather nice period of burst AoE damage. and while Rock Breaker is only 130 potency, MNK attack speed is pretty good. i haven't done the testing, but i imagine during those first 10seconds a MNK should be close to DRG.

Also a note to point out Doom spike is straight Line only not pure aoe, idk about you but most times mobs are clusterfucked around the tank not an easy straight line so most DRGS go for the Heavy Thrust Ring of thorns combo on trash.

yeah. it can get difficult to use Doom Spike at times. i just always try to select the furthest enemy in a mob. it usually does well. and only rarely passes over like 1 or 2 enemies. but it is so worth using over that other combo during Blood for Blood. also Doom Spike is pretty good when you need to stand further away from the enemy, or escape an AoE.

also with Ring of Thorns you have a couple of options. you can either waste Blood for Blood time by trying to combo in to it with Heavy Thrust. and potentially waste even more time by not hitting your directional. or you can waste Blood for Blood entirely by spamming only Ring of Thorns without the combo. but i guess it could still be decent damage. to each their own.

Quit Nin, you're bringing shame to the job.

i am sorry if you didn't feel like reading through my previous wall of text. so i will just say this... the numbers don't lie.

[Chihaya]

the numbers don't lie.

Like these?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Huton-Duration

[BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY]

Like these?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Huton-Duration

cool story... i made a mistake and didn't argue it. when you play every single combat class/job, constantly reading every tool-tip before going to do something would get tedious. unless you are unsure of the action. it was an honest mistake with no math behind it. but here is different. you can go in-game for your self and test it.

okay i will make it more fair and take everything off, except for weapon and soul crystal...

Job/Damage/Time(seconds)
DRG = 322 / 4.92
MNK = 255 / 6.36
NIN = 245 / 6.36

DRG = 1337 / 20
MNK = 1009 / 20
NIN = 821 / 20


on average the MNK was able to sustain a higher amount of AoE damage. i repeated the test several times. sometimes NIN had a slightly higher number during the shorter test. but almost every test showed MNK being higher. also note i am not counting the single target action on MNK in the damage shown.


P.S. that final 20 second result for DRG is good one. lol :P

[Darkobra]

when you play every single combat class/job, constantly reading every tool-tip before going to do something would get tedious. unless you are unsure of the action.

You were unsure of the action. You got the numbers outright wrong. You don't need to "constantly read them." You need to learn them. Once.

If you're trying to change the game and do some theorycrafting, don't throw out the numbers without showing the math, what targets you've been using, gear levels, rotations... I get that you're new to this but what do you think is going to happen when someone that's been doing it for over a decade comes along and asks these very questions?

The excuse of "I don't want to read all the tooltips" just means I can't take the rest of the thread seriously. It screams to me that you're inexperienced with the ninja class so shouldn't be trying to change anything but your own skill.

[Ricdeau]

i completely understand. but that is also situational. many large pulls, in my experiences, lasts for at least 30 seconds. however, since the lift on item-level sync i have seen some serious damage out there. have even seen a player literally one hit K.O. something before. probably a DRG finishing a Full Thrust combo with a critical. it was a melee player that much i remember.

and yeah Blood for Blood + Perfect Balance with already having Greased Lightning III allows MNK a rather nice period of burst AoE damage. and while Rock Breaker is only 130 potency, MNK attack speed is pretty good. i haven't done the testing, but i imagine during those first 10seconds a MNK should be close to DRG.

What I'm about to say pertains only to monk, and not your issues with the ninja changes.

While PB Rock Breaker spam is nice for the duration you need to remember that PB is a 3 minute cooldown, and you won't be able to use it much at all in a dungeon. Also you're mentioning monk with GL3 doing PB+BfB Rock Breaker spam. It takes over 20 seconds to get GL3 up without PB to get there in the first place so holding PB until after you get GL3 usually will mean that a lot of trash on a big pull will be dead or close to dead already. Monk AoE is extremely weak because of setup time, and by the time you're ready to get that ideal Rock Breaker spam going with all your buffs up (IR+BfB+GL3) a lot of mobs will be low on health already from other classes that don't need that kind of setup time for their AoE. Monk AoE isn't very good at all outside using it with a 3 minute cooldown and totally wrecking our TP pool, and quite frankly that's fine given how good our single target damage is.

[BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY]

What I'm about to say pertains only to monk, and not your issues with the ninja changes.

While PB Rock Breaker spam is nice for the duration you need to remember that PB is a 3 minute cooldown, and you won't be able to use it much at all in a dungeon. Also you're mentioning monk with GL3 doing PB+BfB Rock Breaker spam. It takes over 20 seconds to get GL3 up without PB to get there in the first place so holding PB until after you get GL3 usually will mean that a lot of trash on a big pull will be dead or close to dead already. Monk AoE is extremely weak because of setup time, and by the time you're ready to get that ideal Rock Breaker spam going with all your buffs up (IR+BfB+GL3) a lot of mobs will be low on health already from other classes that don't need that kind of setup time for their AoE. Monk AoE isn't very good at all outside using it with a 3 minute cooldown and totally wrecking our TP pool, and quite frankly that's fine given how good our single target damage is.

hm. i see i see said the blind mouse. you make very good points. and i appreciate the advice. but would like to add on that it seems to be situational on which way it would be done. it took me 20.61 seconds to GL3. but also during this time you still doing AoE damage. so it's not so bad. and if you are certain the mob will last for at least 10 more seconds, then PB would be pretty good. but i wouldn't save Blood for Blood under that situation. chances are it will be half wasted. better to use it right away.

but yeah, if you know the mob will just die so quickly, may as well go for PB right at the start.

[Ricdeau]

hm. i see i see said the blind mouse. you make very good points. and i appreciate the advice. but would like to add on that it seems to be situational on which way it would be done. it took me 20.61 seconds to GL3. but also during this time you still doing AoE damage. so it's not so bad. and if you are certain the mob will last for at least 10 more seconds, then PB would be pretty good. but i wouldn't save Blood for Blood under that situation. chances are it will be half wasted. better to use it right away.

What I was getting it is if you're going to PB Rock Breaker spam, I'd just get 1 stack of GL and then hit it. However, keep in mind Rock Breaker costs 120 TP, and if you have enough mobs to make Arm of the Destroyer worth it that costs 130 TP. You can't keep that up for long. Depending on the length of the fight sometimes you only have the resources for one pull, and then you're potentially totally spent on the next pull. Other times you're good for two pulls going all out like that. If you ask the tank to hold between pulls then you're totally wasting the entire point of doing big pulls. Except for some circumstances I'd say you're also better off holding PB for the boss where a monk's true damage really shines, and just stick to using Rock Breaker as a finisher for normal combos so you can pace your TP. Nothing is going to slow the group down more than a melee waiting on TP to recharge, and this is a problem that a lot of tanks don't seem to get.

Monk AoE is expensive, and not very good outside of a very short duration. You can't keep it going, and here in lies the difference between monk and ninja AoE. Yes, there's a time cost for your ninjutsu, but if you exclude Death Blossom which will be your TP dump equivalent you can maintain some AoE damage pull after pull. Blowing all your TP in a dungeon is a very real issue, and one that shouldn't be overlooked.

[BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY]

What I was getting it is if you're going to PB Rock Breaker spam, I'd just get 1 stack of GL and then hit it. However, keep in mind Rock Breaker costs 120 TP, and if you have enough mobs to make Arm of the Destroyer worth it that costs 130 TP. You can't keep that up for long. Depending on the length of the fight sometimes you only have the resources for one pull, and then you're potentially totally spent on the next pull. Other times you're good for two pulls going all out like that. If you ask the tank to hold between pulls then you're totally wasting the entire point of doing big pulls. Except for some circumstances I'd say you're also better off holding PB for the boss where a monk's true damage really shines, and just stick to using Rock Breaker as a finisher for normal combos so you can pace your TP. Nothing is going to slow the group down more than a melee waiting on TP to recharge, and this is a problem that a lot of tanks don't seem to get.

Monk AoE is expensive, and not very good outside of a very short duration. You can't keep it going, and here in lies the difference between monk and ninja AoE. Yes, there's a time cost for your ninjutsu, but if you exclude Death Blossom which will be your TP dump equivalent you can maintain some AoE damage pull after pull. Blowing all your TP in a dungeon is a very real issue, and one that shouldn't be overlooked.

see this is what i like. people who actually try to help. because of you i may even be a slightly better MNK now. ^_^ but on a side note, i always just spam for the 20second period on Blood for Blood. then there is invigorate. after popping invigorate i take it easy. even if some B4B is still running. allowing just a little time in between actions.

i don't know about most people... but what i consider spamming is executing the action before the clock animation finishes. and before the icon flashes. the icon should flash immediately as the clock animation finishes. however, the icon doesn't always seem to flash. but i usually allow at least like a half second in-between each action after bursting. if TP is really tight, then a whole second. and with this i almost never have TP issues. and if my TP is still regenerating on the next pull, then i wait a few second before engaging. just IMO, but there is not much point in using your actions as fast as possible after your burst period. but i've always been a conservative person at anything.

[MrCookTM]

i don't know about most people... but what i consider spamming is executing the action before the clock animation finishes. and before the icon flashes. the icon should flash immediately as the clock animation finishes. however, the icon doesn't always seem to flash. but i usually allow at least like a half second in-between each action after bursting. if TP is really tight, then a whole second. and with this i almost never have TP issues. and if my TP is still regenerating on the next pull, then i wait a few second before engaging. just IMO, but there is not much point in using your actions as fast as possible after your burst period. but i've always been a conservative person at anything.

You're only talking about trash pulls in dungeons here, right?

[BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY]

You're only talking about trash pulls in dungeons here, right?

yeah. medium/large trash pulls in dungeons.