RNG is Back with ZODIAC Relic

[Lemuria]

In terms of difficulty, it is. It's a long grind, but having to play a lot doesn't mean it's not casual.

Expensive materia melds and Alexandrite disagree with you. Since when did 'casuals' have millions of gil to drop on materia for this? A 'casual' is more likely to take the far more acceptable choice of completing a few dungeons, which they'll be doing anyway for normal gear upgrades, and getting their soldiery weapon in a matter of weeks.

This is not casual friendly, and it's clearly not even aimed at casuals due to the repetitive and time consuming nature of every aspect of its design. Haven't got hours upon hours to waste on Atma grinding? Too bad. Got 11/12 atmas but can't get that last one to drop? Enjoy having 11 slots of your inventory effectively wasted while you try. Want animus? Enjoy waiting for 3 hours on a gosh-darned Fate because it refuses to spawn when you're logged in!

The very definition of the world casual means you don't have hours to spend on the game at a sitting, and when you do it's a rare and fleeting thing. I 'casually' completed my animus. Took me MONTHS. In that time I could have earned an ilvl 110 soldiery weapon four times over. Not only would it have been superior to Animus, but a lot less strenuous. I now have little interest to begin Novus because not only does it cost at least HALF the price of a soldiery weapon to begin (3x inks at 250 soldiery each), but the materia costs thereafter are in the multi-millions.

Casual players try to budget their time more effectively. There's very little 'reward' for the zodiac line and a whole lot of work. When you can get an equal or close-to reward by a far quicker and easier means, then there really is no contest.

[Sparktacus]

Expensive materia melds and Alexandrite disagree with you. Since when did 'casuals' have millions of gil to drop on materia for this? A 'casual' is more likely to take the far more acceptable choice of completing a few dungeons, which they'll be doing anyway for normal gear upgrades, and getting their soldiery weapon in a matter of weeks.

This is not casual friendly, and it's clearly not even aimed at casuals due to the repetitive and time consuming nature of every aspect of its design. Haven't got hours upon hours to waste on Atma grinding? Too bad. Got 11/12 atmas but can't get that last one to drop? Enjoy having 11 slots of your inventory effectively wasted while you try. Want animus? Enjoy waiting for 3 hours on a gosh-darned Fate because it refuses to spawn when you're logged in!

The very definition of the world casual means you don't have hours to spend on the game at a sitting, and when you do it's a rare and fleeting thing. I 'casually' completed my animus. Took me MONTHS. In that time I could have earned an ilvl 110 soldiery weapon four times over. Not only would it have been superior to Animus, but a lot less strenuous. I now have little interest to begin Novus because not only does it cost at least HALF the price of a soldiery weapon to begin (3x inks at 250 soldiery each), but the materia costs thereafter are in the multi-millions.

Casual players try to budget their time more effectively. There's very little 'reward' for the zodiac line and a whole lot of work. When you can get an equal or close-to reward by a far quicker and easier means, then there really is no contest.

Exactly this.


Anyone who thinks the relic grind is in any way casual, is completely nuts.

[Themis]

Exactly this.
Anyone who thinks the relic grind is in any way casual, is completely nuts.

All that it requires to be "casual" is something that doesn't require a dedicated bit of time, and with that I'd say around 2-3 hours plus in a single block. The entire relic stage, even the first part up to actually getting it, doesn't require large blocks of time investment. It does require a time investment, yes, but that time investment can be made up of 20-30 minute blocks that most people can fit into their day.

Now, I wouldn't say that the relic grind is casual. It's more mid tier, especially if you want to get it at a reasonable rate, in that it requires a decent time investment and a want to work on it. You shouldn't do the relic quests for a quick and easy weapon. If you want quick and easy, that's what the Soldiery weapon is for (and eventually what the Ironworks will be for). But you can do the relic weapon casually; the more casually, though, the longer the time it will take and the longer the time it will be a subpar weapon. And you do the relic weapon because you want something to show people "this is a job I am dedicated to".

And that's it.

The problem with it really lies with the players who want to achieve BiS type weapons. The customisation of the relic makes it really appealing to those who want to maximize on their output even though the difference or a few % dps would only really affect those who are progression world first chasers (and those players have crazy commitment and dedication already). If you don't like the quests, don't do them. Use the other methods of getting gear that is more enjoyable or worth your time. You have a choice.

[kyuven]

I love how people complain that there's no mid-range items between "casual" and "hardcore," then we have this thread complaining that what is commonly seen as casual is not casual.
Make up your minds.
Earning alexandrite in and of itself is the definition of casual. The materia melds are expensive not because of a design choice by SE, but because of market values. If you want THE BEST MOST UBER of weapons, you have to be willing to pony up the dough. However, getting materia is very easy. You can get a full set of very nice shiny materia with a decent shot at the more expensive ones if you're willing to invest the money or time.
"Casual" does not necessarily mean it can be done in a week of playing an hour a day. That's absurd for a game's endgame content. Hell that's bad business sense since if it takes a week to accomplish something, what are your casual players going to be doing the other 5-6 weeks between major content patches?
Things take time. It's a purposeful design decision to keep you paying your monthly fee. Deal with it, or quit. Time investment isn't going to change.

[RiceisNice]

I love how people complain that there's no mid-range items between "casual" and "hardcore," then we have this thread complaining that what is commonly seen as casual is not casual.
Make up your minds.
Earning alexandrite in and of itself is the definition of casual. The materia melds are expensive not because of a design choice by SE, but because of market values. If you want THE BEST MOST UBER of weapons, you have to be willing to pony up the dough...

Don't confuse People with People.

It's also not the "best most uber" weapon, not by a long shot especially for the novus step. You're right that this is player market driven, but obtaining the materia is rng of its own (especially if you're trying to for grade IV materia, there's no guaranteed converts for these, let alone to get one that isn't a primary stat or elemental)

What I have a problem (and probably a lot others) with is the projected time investment required for the relics versus the alternatives (which would now be ilvl115 with upgraded shiva weapons). Weapon damage is the strongest damage stat for every class (to a varying degree), and even something as easy as shiva would outdamage novus. Unfortunately I can't really see how they can change upon novus because again, it's mostly player driven in regards to price (though that can still flow into obtainin the materia and being lucky with it).

The current relic quest I don't mind so much; it gets nearly all the aspect of the game involved, it helps to know friends who can craft and desyn for you, or if you can even craft yourself (espesically at this late in the game, gearing for 3* is significantly easier now)

[Edeline]

Expensive materia melds and Alexandrite disagree with you. Since when did 'casuals' have millions of gil to drop on materia for this? A 'casual' is more likely to take the far more acceptable choice of completing a few dungeons, which they'll be doing anyway for normal gear upgrades, and getting their soldiery weapon in a matter of weeks.

This is not casual friendly, and it's clearly not even aimed at casuals due to the repetitive and time consuming nature of every aspect of its design. Haven't got hours upon hours to waste on Atma grinding? Too bad. Got 11/12 atmas but can't get that last one to drop? Enjoy having 11 slots of your inventory effectively wasted while you try. Want animus? Enjoy waiting for 3 hours on a gosh-darned Fate because it refuses to spawn when you're logged in!

The very definition of the world casual means you don't have hours to spend on the game at a sitting, and when you do it's a rare and fleeting thing. I 'casually' completed my animus. Took me MONTHS. In that time I could have earned an ilvl 110 soldiery weapon four times over. Not only would it have been superior to Animus, but a lot less strenuous. I now have little interest to begin Novus because not only does it cost at least HALF the price of a soldiery weapon to begin (3x inks at 250 soldiery each), but the materia costs thereafter are in the multi-millions.

Casual players try to budget their time more effectively. There's very little 'reward' for the zodiac line and a whole lot of work. When you can get an equal or close-to reward by a far quicker and easier means, then there really is no contest.

Gathering, crafting or simply SBing yourself a few items a day. People already did/do that. You make it sound as if farming gil is something hard in this game. I didn't even actively farm for gil and still had some millions, plus retainer's rng. You're confusing long time grinding associating it with not being casual, because casuals are suposed to only play 1 hour a day? the rng is there intended to not let you get your weapons in 1 day, however people who really want their relics, invest more time in it, pushing it to the limits.

[Lemuria]

You're confusing long time grinding associating it with not being casual, because casuals are suposed to only play 1 hour a day? the rng is there intended to not let you get your weapons in 1 day, however people who really want their relics, invest more time in it, pushing it to the limits.

Being a casual player doesn't mean you want to keep playing yesterdays content. The problem this game has is that it's constantly gear-scaled. A new patch is released, a new bunch of dungeons come out and a whole new set of gear to grind up. Also, a whole new bunch of item levels required to take part.

You could 'casually' obtain Novus over the course of a year, but what would that achieve? You'd have a weapon which is not only unfinished, but completely antiquated even in its final form. Feel free to clean off the cobwebs, just don't expect it to be of much use for any of the 'current' content at that point. By which point you've already been able to obtain a nice level 110 or better weapon which does the job just fine. Ultimately you have to ask if it's worthwhile. I'd argue most would say no.

If they wanted relic to be casual friendly, they should have made the quests worth doing. People don't notice the grind when they're enjoying themselves, it's a fact. I didn't mind getting Zenith on every single class because it was varied and entertaining. I know that once I beat X mobs, kill a chimera, a hydra and three primals along with a few trades I get a shiny weapon. It has a fixed time frame I can work with, and a clear number of steps.

Moreover, each one of those steps is different and not repeated. Each boss fight has its own rules of engagement, and even a chance for loot to help your progress in future battles. It's like originality died after Zenith. It becomes a random grindfest. It's random whether you get your atma, it's random whether your Fate will spawn. It's random whether there's enough tanks and heals for your duty finder. It's random whether you can get that extra meld on your scroll. It's random if you get the item at the end of your dungeon.

...and for what? A weapon which offers NOTHING special. In fact, it's actually 5 levels LOWER than the current 'best' weapon in the game. So... why do we want this again?

[Edeline]

Being a casual player doesn't mean you want to keep playing yesterdays content. The problem this game has is that it's constantly gear-scaled. A new patch is released, a new bunch of dungeons come out and a whole new set of gear to grind up. Also, a whole new bunch of item levels required to take part.

You could 'casually' obtain Novus over the course of a year, but what would that achieve? You'd have a weapon which is not only unfinished, but completely antiquated even in its final form.

That's the point. It's not about achievement, it's about having fun playing the game while doing it. Besides, it's an optional weapon outside raiding, and it's more than a decent weapon to clear every content, they're not gonna give it for nearly no effort. And that effort you have to put in it is in casual mode. I've made 1 Nexus and 2 extra Novus weapons. One of the Novus is nearly done, and the other one is half way, all this done with expert, trial roulettes and a random dungeon here and there. If that's not casual, you tell me what it is.

[Keisatsu]

That's the point. It's not about achievement, it's about having fun playing the game while doing it. Besides, it's an optional weapon outside raiding, and it's more than a decent weapon to clear every content, they're not gonna give it for nearly no effort. And that effort you have to put in it is in casual mode. I've made 1 Nexus and 2 extra Novus weapons. One of the Novus is nearly done, and the other one is half way, all this done with expert, trial roulettes and a random dungeon here and there. If that's not casual, you tell me what it is.

Oh somebody that actually understands what I'm going on about, you don't have to commit all the time in the world to these things, just do them along with your daily things, roulettes and what-not and you'll be done at a casual, easy pace.
Since when do casuals care about what it would achieve? I for one certainly don't and yet here I am close to Excalibur / Aegis shield without having done T9 :s (though some will get their giggles making fun of me for that, I hardly care)

[Lemuria]

That's the point. It's not about achievement, it's about having fun playing the game while doing it. Besides, it's an optional weapon outside raiding, and it's more than a decent weapon to clear every content, they're not gonna give it for nearly no effort.

Except... it's not fun. It's not even remotely enjoyable. Where's the fun in endlessly grinding materia just to blow it up in 30 seconds? Where's the fun in grinding the gil necessary to PURCHASE the items you need to spiritbond? Where's the 'fun' in staying in a zone waiting on a Fate that hasn't spawned in the last 3 hours? If you consider any of those tasks 'fun', then you have a very warped sense of taste.

And that effort you have to put in it is in casual mode. I've made 1 Nexus and 2 extra Novus weapons. One of the Novus is nearly done, and the other one is half way, all this done with expert, trial roulettes and a random dungeon here and there. If that's not casual, you tell me what it is.

I don't believe you. For a start, it's literally impossible to do it this way. Assuming you had three atma's weapons to begin with when the alexandrite was released and you earned your alex using dailies, you could only complete 2.8 relic weapons to Novus. So, not even three of them.

That means you've must've put in effort to earn Alexandrite in different ways. Either via hunts (presumed) or using the maps, which are purchased using additional mythology at a rate of 800 per map or 400 soldiery more recently. Now comes the materia costs. You've melded 225 to get that far. Great. Now tally up how much that cost you. If it's not gil spent buying the materia, it's gil spent buying the materials to craft the spiritbond gear. If it's not gil spent doing either, then it's TIME spent doing the lot, which is considerably less casual.

So which is it? Throw lots of gil at it or spend ages on every tiny little aspect? Neither of which is a remotely 'casual' option.