Dragoon: top dps and easiest melee class by far ?

[ColdestHeaven]

All that are press one Attack+ Spamming 1 button. Of course, the rotation is not ideal but it is doable. And I can literally play with 2 FINGERS and STAND STILL.

If you want you can stand still with monk too, duh. Guess what though. It's not ideal either. Just like that macro. As someone already said, each class is easy. Playing each class at its fullest is not easy. If you can't or don't want to acknowledge this, then there's no point in posting anymore.

[LionKing]

Dragon never has low base damage potency to begin with. In a dummy fight, a good dragon still pull out respectable DPS, relatively close to Ninja and MNK DpS. The only sole reasons that hinder them to unleash their full potential in real fight were because of the strict position requirement to pull off a combo and too low Magic Def, hence higher risk of dying.

MNK is excel in a long term fight where sustainable DPS is preferable. Dragon on the other hand, is excel at burst and in the fight where burst damage is necessary, Dragon is your friend. However, with that said, even in a long fight, Dragon DPS was not that far off from MNK pre-patch.

Strictly speaking from my experience, I had been playing Dragoon for my static since our first clear in t6 up all the way to our T9 first completion. The sore reason why I changed to MNK after that was just because the first Weapon drop was that of MNK, so I switched. Later on, when I had both of MNK/Dragoon on the same Ilv gears, with both HA weapons, I did a little test by coming in T9 as MNK at first, then Dragoon later and had my friend recorded my number. My Dragoon was just 10 DPS less than my MNK, same group set up, same players playing the same class, under the same conditions, same player skills playing MNK/Drg. So, Either I sucked at MNK or were good at Dragoon.

Remove position requirements for buff and higher Mdef are good and welcomed by all of us as Drg do need them. However, higher up the attack potency, both physical and Dots while lower the CD on some skills, alongside with the other buffs, altogether made the buff for Dragoon over the top.

If you want you can stand still with monk too, duh. Guess what though. It's not ideal either. Just like that macro. As someone already said, each class is easy. Playing each class at its fullest is not easy. If you can't or don't want to acknowledge this, then there's no point in posting anymore.

Have is my response to you:

Step 1: Having both your MNK and Dragoon on the same Ilv gear with the same Ilv Weapon.
Step 2: Having Macro "Internal Release + BfB" on MNK and have the macro I posted for Dragoon.
Step 3: Stand by a Training Dummy, flank or rear your choice.
Step 4: Hand off your movement keys and slowly close your eyes (Optional) - Key step is here
Step 5: Execute the combos as how you would in a real fight over the period of 5 mins.
Step 6: Come back here and tell me which number is higher.

[whiskeybravo]

Oy. I know it's more fun to read 1 sentence, ignore the rest of the post then respond to something completely unrelated, but contrary to people on this forum, it doesn't make a strong argument. If every melee pushes buttons in the right order, drg does 98% of optimal damage, mnk and ninja don't because they have additional mechanics, all after I say I LIKE the drg damage buff.

But obviously what I really meant was mnks can DK DK DK DK lulz. /sarcasm

Lern2reed.

Maybe we are just not looking at this the same... Did the actual rotation change? No. So DRGs are doing the exact same rotation (with slight adjustments to buff timing) except not being penalized when a mechanic won't let you hit the rear or the flank for whatever reason. That was half of the damn DRG combo! The more powerful half!

Every class has to "push buttons in the right order", GL3 is not like an actual mechanic of MNK, it just happens from "pushing buttons in the right order". If it drops cuz you messed up that's your fault, but if it's a encounter related mechanic to force a break - it's not like you have to do anything but get it back up by "pushing the right buttons". Ninjitsu is an actual mechanic that depends on the player, so that's a fair point, NIN rotation is not 98% of their damage. Don't act like MNK is a difficult job to play though, by far the easiest IMO.

[Hyrist]

Someone complaining on an objective view? Ok. Here's mine. I feel that it is fair in assessment. You are free to agree or disagree.

Put bluntly, for the complexity that Monk had, it's punishment mechanics were far less than Dragoon's previously. You can take a hit in your DPS by not being in optimal positioning and still maintain your core combo mechanic, which is greased lightning.


Dragoon, before this patch, did not have that luxury. The execution of the core mechanic was far less forgiving, you missed your initiation, you took a substantial DPS hit, and often, to land those positional attacks, you had to pause. Where a Monk to could eat the slight DPS loss to continue his mechanic, Dragoon was forced to take much larger hits in DPS for similar circumstances.

We compound this with the added utility Monk provides in INT reduction and superior Mantra in addition to a situational Stun. Monk's superior DPS, mechanical forgiveness, and Utility was completely unbalanced in contrast.

There is a logical fallacy being presented that difficulty of mechanical execution should justify superior DPS. In a vacuum, this philosophy may be argued with merit. However it is trumped by the necessity of Class balance.

From the perspective of Class Balance the class that is 'easier' (a label that is misinformation, attempting to put a negative context to indicate a class's mechanics are more simple in concept) should have no bearing on whether or not the class is viable. In truth the mechanics of Monk or Dragoon are irrelevant compared to how they should measure up to one another in terms of group usefulness.

In the end, Dragoon's end output was punished too hard for errors that were often unavoidable, and similarly punished when hesitating to insure positioning was correct, especially when paired in competition to a class who's utility and end-dps was already superior.

Dragoon's top-end damage alone needed adjustment to make up for the lack of utility.

As it stands, I objectively agree with the adjustments made thus far. The punishment mechanic for Dragoon has been adjusted to be less than that of a Monk. And, in trade for the utilities Monk offers, Dragoon's assistance to a Bards DPS provides the potential for contributing more overall damage.

X 2 Monk parties still come with the same advantage in utility and likely higher DPS. The trade off is that it is more difficult to reach that idea DPS. Does not change that 2 monks will have higher up-time on INT down and more instances of the higher potency mantra than a Dragoon, as well as superior overall DPS to a x2 Dragoon x1 Bard set up, but I digress.

In the end these changes make Dragoon more comparable as far as contributions the party is concerned. The ease or difficulty of execution, when talking objective debates, is irrelevant. It is quite simply a straw-man argument when discussing class balance. Only when the execution is an contrasting impairment to the performance of the class, such in the case of Dragoon's previous combo requirements, should it be considered.

Is Monk's or Ninja's position in a party threatened? Only in the context that Dragoon is likely no longer considered an inferior in the average conversation. Once again, execution over class preference will likely pervade most conversations regarding classes - which is as it should be. Dragoons, previous to this, were sharply falling into a state of disregard. I applaud Square Enix for making the adjustments within one patch increment and making a substantial, yet well measured adjustment.

[Izsha]

What I mean when I say push buttons in the right order is doing your jobs proper gcd rotation and using instant abilities. Every job has a set optimal rotation of gcd and instants. That's the base for not suck in at your job. A mnk then has to do positionals and a trick or 2 in specific cased to keep gl. Nin has to also maintain its ninjutsu system and position for ta. (Opinions vary on ninjutsu as an additional mechanic or a just a bazillion instant skills. I think the former and SE seems to agree). My point is that Drg can (now) stop at just the button pushing part and literally be at 98% efficiency while mnk/nin have an additional layer of gameplay to spice them up.

I think drgs damage is in the right ballpark now, I just disagree with the dramatic positional easing. Drg now has 5 positionals a min, 3 HT and 2 chaos, that work like nearly every one of mnks gcds they use every 2 sec. And there's frankly nothing else drg has to concern itself with. Drgs now have the same magic def, more hp, and can more freely use b4b without worry. What exactly does drg have to consider now beyond their rotation (which is the bare minimum to play any melee)? I just personally think they removed anything that made drg different and over simplified it. I'm not calling for a damage reversion or anything. I think they just killed that extra layer that every job has to manage beyond basic rotation and instants spam.

[Zedd702]

DRG top DPS.

You need to talk to your MNK, if you're thinking that's the case.

LOL No. DRGs can now ACTUALLY compete with MNK in DPS, DRG's don't consistently out-damage MNK... I'm happy DRG got their long deserved buffs, they needed it tbqh.

While I like my MNK, I'm no fanboy, So don't misunderstand me, but you're incorrectu.

EDIT: OH wait I see wuh you did there... you're actually right and said what I said.

[Hyrist]

<snip>

Please don't take this the wrong way, but yours is a subjective viewpoint, not an objective argument. In which case, it has no more or less validity than any other opinion, agreeing or disagreeing.


As a counterpoint I would like to offer up the common denomer that most Dragoons cannot, in fact, manage their auxiliary functions, namely jumps, in a manner in which it is optimal. Either too eager to hit on cooldown or too cautious, often both DPS AND positioning is lost because a lot of Dragoon's DPS assistance is on off-cooldown, single hit skills that manipulate positioning and come with limited animation lock.

As a personal preference, I'd ask you not to use hyperbolic numbers in arguments. More than 2% is lost when ignoring the positioning of Chaos Thrust and Heavy Thrust, even if the hard combo initiative is gone. Additionally, positioning must still be considered throughout the fight when managing Jump Cooldowns. A jump that is too eager can result in lost dps due to fight mechanics, whether by being hit by a directional, or by wasting a cooldown that can adjust positioning for a dragoon and increase overall DPS by pausing a few moments.

What you are arguing is not the same as the OP. At the risk of seeming presumptuous, you are asking for more class depth, not more class difficulty. You are looking for the class to be more engaging, which is a matter of personal preference. I won't argue that matter as in no way can I tell you what you should like. And I personally withhold judgment on the class mechanic's level of engagement until I have had more time to play it post adjustments. I do know that, due to the frequency increase of two of my off-GDC skills, I am actually having to remap my Gamepad bindings to compensate. If you're interested, I'll let you know later whether or not I still find the class engaging.

But again, I don't feel that particular debate has any real baring when it comes to class balancing. I really was not expecting a quick adjustment to be highly in-depth. And I currently don't feel this is an over-simplification, at least on paper. We'll see if that perspective changes after more field experience.

[QCrimson]

What they should have done is add an effect to one of the tanks' abilities that, when applied, would allow the melee dps to hit their positionals from anywhere on that target. One or two minutes cooldown, to be used on pulls, when adds spawn or when the mechanics don't allow us to move freely (like on t11 when the first AoE is directed to you while you're tethered to someone). No "dumbing down" + extra synergy.

[RakaMaimhov]

lalafell tears.

You know the adjustments made to Dragoon where the closest thing they could come to balance the class to the other classes, listen to player feedback, and not change DRG gameplay too much, right?

Of course you don't know that. You don't main Dragoon, do you?

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

The DRG buffs make up for their lack of utility. It gives them more value in groups now.

Good DPS + Limited Group Utility = Dragoon / Black Mage
Good DPS + Group Utility = Monk / ninja / Bard

gg no re