Who is Optional – A Question of Consumer Value

[M0xie]

EU datacenter was requested before the game went online. That's when it should have been set up. No tedious disentanglements and preparations to move an production system.

And would you like the profit data for FFXIV again? The game is turning a major profit, the cash shop is just extra-milking for the cherry on top.

Before ARR, Square Enix was very much in the deep red on this game. Are your figures accounting for FFXIV as a whole and the money they lost on it?

[Shougun]

(post from another Cash Shop Thread since they are all the same conversation)
I want to interject a thought into this thread and pose a question to anyone who will read. To those of you saying that the way you (personal "you") win at this game is to collect mounts and minions and as such SE is selling "Win" on the cash shop and thus this game is Pay to win, I ask you:At any point in this game did you battle, level up, collect gear and weapons? Because if you boil this game's concept down, The language that this game uses for "Power" is gear stats and weapon stats and character level. So unless you logged in and sat in the starter zone saying "I dont want to fight, I just want to collect", you have and are playing this game and participating in the "Win" condition of this game.

It is fallacious and dishonest to claim that the new "Win" condition of this game is to collect minions and mounts and pass that off on the forums as a perceived form of "Power". This is akin to agreeing to play a game of "Tag" and then refusing to chase. Akin to agreeing to run a race and not running the agreed-upon path.

Even if you convince yourself that your form of "Power" is collecting minions and mounts and clothing to jazz yourself up, you can not re-write the code of this game's definition of "Power". SE is not selling power. Even if they sell cards packs for Gold saucer, that wont be "Power" because even in Magic: The gathering, packs represent a chance of randomly pulling "power" whereas buying specific cards is straight buying "power" and even hearthstone doesnt sell specific cards.

Slippery slope is one fallacy, true. But the main fallacy here is one of dishonesty. You can't agree to play the game, in the terms of how the game was coded to be played and then declare that the "win" condition is something otherwise. Just like I can not play this game, with the intent of leveling BLM to become a street magician in order to make gil. The game is not coded in such a way to let me do that. Furthermore it was not advertised as a game in which i could do such a thing.

One last thing, even if your mission is to catch em all as far as minions and mounts are concerned, you have to, you must, be aware of the fact that this is an MMO, and thus any thing you attempt to 100% will be daunting, exhausting, and quite possibly cost you Real life money. Achievements and Collections are the chief among real money requirements. This comes in the form of buying pre-orders, collector's editions, virtual tickets (blizzard), art books, soundtracks... etc

Since win relates to having success and success can be pulled from opinion, p2w can absolutely relate to obtaining mounts - at least in basic usage, commonly accepted usage can differ and may differ as a function of time. As pointed out in this thread, devs may mean one meaning that has tighter rules, but then that would be a special rule which is easily subject to public whim (for acceptance) and can an ignored term due to newfangled inaccuracy.

There is no dishonesty in having the right to your own opinion. "Well you can't play this unless you have my opinion" lol good luck with that then XD.

The game started without a cash shop, so original terms of condition for each person can be different. If you join WoW now and then say the terms were never presented to you then sure you can say they were blind bats (does not remove their ability to be disappointed but it does remove their ability to claim change). Also it seems you are trying to argue the option of "one or the other, only", which you would know is a fallacy as well.. Players can choose to win in multiple ways, winning say in Dishonored can be through no combat or a lot, in minecraft it can be vanity and or survival, also winning here in all accounts is temporal when you consider end goals are always moving away. Never the last dungeon, the last monsters. Never the last mount. So I don't think you are being fair acting as if you like winning in battle you can't win in collecting mounts (if you get 1 more job, you get 1 more mount, heck you literally win a mount by leveling white mage, I think the difference by using the basic word win is mute).

Again as someone argued a general idea that is accepted for pay to win "devs only think about battle content", which can be a fair assessment of their (dev/general) mind set. But unfortunately it is also right to the players to say that term is unacceptable as they don't accept the twist on it (accepting opinions can change too). In which case perhaps devs need to come up with a new term. We do not to do pay2battle or something lol. It was a poor term in the beginning anyways and I think it is fair to contest its meaning and as language has proven things change.. as helpful and annoying as that may be.

Edit: For clarity -> poor term meaning that it is easily ply-able, argument on not to ply it is hard when it lends itself to that rather easily (and not all "plying" is not malevolent but rather natural reading without guidance of a predefined accepted term).

[ShanaShirayuki]

Let me post a quote from another thread that sums up how silly people complaining are:

Newsflash, SE doesn't care about you. They are making these decisions because the amount of people who are willing to pay for this kind of thing outclasses their projections of those who might leave or unsub due to this type of decision. If the Cash Shop wasn't profitable they never would've created it, much less expand its services.

This game appeals to the lowest common denominator. A vocal minority of players upset about this decision will pale in comparison to the droves who will eat this **** up from the palm of SE's hand along with those who will be upset about it but remained subbed.

tl;dr There's a majority of players that are for a cash shop that greatly outweigh the opinions of those who are complaining. SE will listen to the former, not the latter.

[Nutz]

To me the issue isn't that I'll never have all the minions unless I buy these for real money! I was never going to have all the minions anyway, my MIN retainer seems dead set on that as it is. I do, however, like to collect mounts and minions, so seeing what is, at least currently, a few on the Mog Station for real money, is a bit annoying but not really a big deal. It does make me wonder though how many minions/ mounts that might have made it into the game through any number of acquisition means are just going to be posted on the Mog Station for $5 in the future. Even if they say that won't happen, how does that work? They have a separate team for the paid minions than the in game ones? On top of that the team making the paid minions aren't allowed to use any of the ideas the team for in game minions are thinking of?


All it really comes down to is players don't want an item that they really want (for whatever reason) to have an additional price tag associated with it. Nobody wants to see previews of new gear/ mounts/ minions and have to cross their fingers and hope that the ones that they like are included in their subscription instead of an additional cost.

[Kiara]

Great original post. Definitely agree.

This thread actually touches on a key issue that is at the heart of the matter for many about Cash Shops (and now the Eternal Bond / Marriage fiasco):

* Yoshi P has repeatedly mentioned that he wanted to make FF XIV 2.0 into a "Theme Park," something for everyone / all types of players.

He's mentioned repeatedly about catering to mainstream / casual as well as hardcore players. Given that:

* What is "Optional" to those that dismiss the complaints levied against the Cash Shop *is not "Optional"* to those that are against it.

That's really the core of the matter.

I consider myself a more "traditional" RPG & MMORPG player that enjoys End Game, Raiding, Adventuring. So I can see where people like Shio and others are coming from that simply say, "Eh, all that Cash Shop stuff is 'Optional' / Fluff."

However, over the years I've met so many players (in this and other games) that are NOT playing the game for "End Game Raiding."

These are people who truly enjoy FF XIV as a giant Social Chat Room, hanging out with Friends. "Career Crafters and Gatherers," or just enjoying the Final Fantasy Story Line and Quests.

For *those* Players (and even some End Gamers), New Minions, New Mounts, the "Platinum Wedding / Eternal Bond" stuff *IS* their "End Game." That IS what they care about, far more than beating Final Coil.

Yah it may sound strange to traditional Raiders, but I empathize with the Non-Raiders feelings even if I don't care about Minions that much.

And some other observations: If Minions and Mounts really "don't matter" much and should be dismissed as nothing "game breaking," it's interesting that the most expensive items on the Market Boards aren't some "legendary End Game Weapons or Armor," but... Minions and Glamour Items.

When Maro Swimsuits were released, they were some of the most sought-after gear even if it was "just Glamour." People went crazy trying to get Waterproof Cotton, and then look at how much people paid on the Market Boards for getting a silly *GLOW* effect on armor (Augmented Armor - same stats).

Yoshi P has used Mounts and Minions as THE main reward and incentive (the carrot on the stick to keep you grinding on the endless wheel) for so many Dungeons and Instanced Fights.

Why do people continue to fight Garuda, Titan, Ifrit and other Extreme Primals? For a Glowing Horse Mount as silly as it seems now on paper.

What does Yoshi P dangle in front of players to run various Dungeons over and over? A RARE MINION DROP (Baby Opo-Opo, the Parrot, etc.).

The fact of the matter is, Mounts and Minions *DO* matter to a lot of players. They derive the most joy from attaining / collecting these items (or to spend time accessorizing / making great Glamour / Vanity outfits).

So it feels disingenuous for Yoshi P / Dev Team to start taking some of these items (and now the best version of a full event (Wedding)) and put it into a Cash Shop.

Because for *some* players those Cash Shop Items ARE a part of their "End Game" of what's important for them.

Again, I enjoy the End Game facets of any MMORPG the most, but even for me, this feels wrong for a Monthly Subscription-based MMORPG, that releases *Expansion Packs* (that everyone has to buy as well from time-to-time).

The Dev Team needs to realize that their actions here are affecting those that bought the game to play the "Theme Park" aspect in ways beyond the most traditional method (beyond / ignoring "End Game" Combat).

[Izsha]

Just because YOU decide that collecting minions/mounts/vanity is 'winning' doesn't make offering them in shop p2w anymore than deciding that the team who squeaks their shoes the most wins a basketball game. If that's how you enjoy playing, that's great, but making up your own mini game doesn't change the rules. SE decided what constitutes an advantage over other players. Not you. They have deemed items that increase the capability of a job to perform it's (se designed) function as the rule. Vanity gear is all stateless Lv 1 gear. Minions don't increase your str or gathering skill. Bought mounts don't run faster than free mounts.

SE has decided that aesthetic items do not help you perform any activity in the game. Just because you decide that collecting minions means you win doesn't mean SE agrees with you. SE makes the rules and the world and the law if the land is aesthetics are separated from any direct influence on any other aspect of the game and therefore give no tangible advantage. Buying things that have no influence on anything else means they aren't helping you win and SE decided that. You don't have to like it, but unfortunately for vaniteers it isn't your choice. It's SEs.

[Dyvid]

Just because YOU decide that collecting minions/mounts/vanity is 'winning' doesn't make offering them in shop p2w anymore than deciding that the team who squeaks their shoes the most wins a basketball game. If that's how you enjoy playing, that's great, but making up your own mini game doesn't change the rules. SE decided what constitutes an advantage over other players. Not you. They have deemed items that increase the capability of a job to perform it's (se designed) function as the rule. Vanity gear is all stateless Lv 1 gear. Minions don't increase your str or gathering skill. Bought mounts don't run faster than free mounts.

SE has decided that aesthetic items do not help you perform any activity in the game. Just because you decide that collecting minions means you win doesn't mean SE agrees with you. SE makes the rules and the world and the law if the land is aesthetics are separated from any direct influence on any other aspect of the game and therefore give no tangible advantage. Buying things that have no influence on anything else means they aren't helping you win and SE decided that. You don't have to like it, but unfortunately for vaniteers it isn't your choice. It's SEs.

So what you're saying is the paying customers and fan base shouldn't have a say except quit when they are displeased? Let's ask this though, Starlight is coming up and the question is would you be okay if the only reward for that was a snowflake firework while all the other Christmas themed "fluff" was for sell on the Cash Shop?

[Izsha]

So what you're saying is the paying customers and fan base shouldn't have a say except quit when they are displeased? Let's ask this though, Starlight is coming up and the question is would you be okay if the only reward for that was a snowflake firework while all the other Christmas themed "fluff" was for sell on the Cash Shop?

It is fluff. SE decided it's fluff. A similar example already happened. Old Halloween gear got put in the shop when previous events had the old gear from the same event at an npc. If SE decides to decorate the town but have zero costumes this Xmas event then it doesn't matter if I like it or not. My point is that I cannot claim it's p2w just because I decide my personal goal is collect holiday gear. My like or dislike has zero bearing on vanity gear being p2w.

That's the point a lot of people are missing that I'm trying to make. You don't have to like the cash shop or cash shop exclusives, but what is simply not true is putting vanity stuff in the shop and screaming it's p2w because SE decides what winning is. You are free to enjoy the game in whatever way floats your boat, but you don't get to redefine the game SE created.

To expand on my previous example, if the NBA approves new shoes that look different and squeak more but are very expensive and have no impact on the actual basketball game, you don't get to shout 'p2w not fair!' Because you and some friends declare the most squeaky team the winner. You didn't make the game. You can do what you want in you backyard but not rage out at the NBA over vanity shoes that squeak more.

What I am NOT saying is you can't have an opinion. What I'm trying to point out is that the idea that vanity exclusives in shop is in no way p2w because SE decides what winning is. I don't really care if you like shop or not. I'm honestly pretty neutral about the while thing. But this stance rooted in vanity=winning used to justify shop as p2w doesn't have much rational basis.

[Shougun]

It is fluff. SE decided it's fluff. A similar example already happened. Old Halloween gear got put in the shop when previous events had the old gear from the same event at an npc. If SE decides to decorate the town but have zero costumes this Xmas event then it doesn't matter if I like it or not. My point is that I cannot claim it's p2w just because I decide my personal goal is collect holiday gear. My like or dislike has zero bearing on vanity gear being p2w.

That's the point a lot of people are missing that I'm trying to make. You don't have to like the cash shop or cash shop exclusives, but what is simply not true is putting vanity stuff in the shop and screaming it's p2w because SE decides what winning is. You are free to enjoy the game in whatever way floats your boat, but you don't get to redefine the game SE created.

To expand on my previous example, if the NBA approves new shoes that look different and squeak more but are very expensive and have no impact on the actual basketball game, you don't get to shout 'p2w not fair!' Because you and some friends declare the most squeaky team the winner. You didn't make the game. You can do what you want in you backyard but not rage out at the NBA over vanity shoes that squeak more.

What I am NOT saying is you can't have an opinion. What I'm trying to point out is that the idea that vanity exclusives in shop is in no way p2w because SE decides what winning is. I don't really care if you like shop or not. I'm honestly pretty neutral about the while thing. But this stance rooted in vanity=winning used to justify shop as p2w doesn't have much rational basis.

Out of curiousity what prevents SE from saying some battle related item is fluff/not pay to win. Say they sold some of the end raid gear, but it was also available in the game. SE said it isn't pay to win, obviously many players would consider this to be a lie but.. if we aren't allowed to use the definition of "win" or the popular definition of P2W then we must use SE's and SE could do whatever it wanted lol.

*flips table* Its my story. *cries*

[Izsha]

Out of curiousity what prevents SE from saying some battle related item is fluff/not pay to win. Say they sold some of the end raid gear, but it was also available in the game. SE said it isn't pay to win, obviously many players would consider this to be a lie but.. if we aren't allowed to use the definition of "win" then we must use SE's and SE could do whatever it wanted lol.

*flips table* Its my story. *cries*

That's just it. If SE decided that the game was taking a new direction with heavensward and, for example, that saucer was to be the main focus with minigames, ranking systems, tournaments and such and leave the PvE as kinda a side content, then they very well could sell raid gear or raids themselves in shop and it wouldn't be p2w if the game did seriously do an about face.

Don't misconstrue this position with me 'liking' that idea or white knight ing anything SE does no matter how stupid. If the game changes direction to something I don't like then I'm free to find a game that is more in line with my interests. Similarly if the only reason you play is to collect mounts, you might want to take a serious look if this is the right game for you. Just like if you are a PvP fanatic you may want to consider a more pvp focused game. If you live farming/growing this games gardening may not be enough for you. This game doesnt have a huge focus on those activities. That's not being rude, that's just common sense. If you are super serious and centralize your gameplay around 1 element, maybe you should find a game that also focuses on that element.