Women and Armor!

[Aegis]

Google for Kunoichi.

http://www.worldofjapan.net/2011/12/...irst-kunoichi/

Wait, you're telling me a feudal japanese noblewoman was happy to exploit war orphans and prostitutes? Say it ain't so.

The Wikipedia article has not a single cited reference of them wearing revealing clothing. It also does not fit with any of the known lore about what Ninjas are in XIV. In this game, no exception is made for the difference in strength between male and female characters, even though it exists in real life, so there's no reason for them to rely on playing the performer/seductress role that your source indicates. Again, if the ninja AF were available in its fully-covering form for females and a revealing form for males too, then we would have no problem there either.

While the image of a ninja clad in black garb (shinobi shōzoku) is prevalent in popular media, there is no written evidence for such a costume.[75] Instead, it was much more common for the ninja to be disguised as civilians. The popular notion of black clothing is likely rooted in artistic convention; early drawings of ninja were showed them dressed in black in order to portray a sense of invisibility.[44]

But no, you're right. Female Ninjas all dressed in Eastern armour with a hole slashed across two vital organs.

[Jamez82]

The fact most people seem to play female miqo'te (at least on my server) should be saying enough about men.

They want to be sexy. Sorry but men in skimpy armor does not equal sexy.

Unless it's my character.. my highlander can crush everything with his pecs.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

things

Yes I know, I really thought I was going to stop replying here but I kinda fell for it again. I am sorry, I really meant to stop, believe me :/

I think I have already answered to your question in my previous reply, tho. To summarize - the reason for which women can "crossdress" while men can't is simply because male garments are usually more neutral. Think about jeans, for example - they are worn by females all around the world now, and why is that? Because they are trousers. Simple trousers. Why don't men wear striped, schoolgirl-styled skirts, tho? Because, aestetichally, it would be HORRIBLE with male hairy legs sprouting underneath.

Also, funnily enough, women are the ones who started to dress more "manly", in recent years: no more high heels, no more skirts, less makeup, baggy clothes. it was THEIR choice when they started believing that men were "superior", and thus "dressing like men was cool".
I can assure you that, generally speaking, males prefer females who dress like females - as much as females like males who dress like damned males and not like Hildibrand at the beach.
Males can't help it, if females are the first ones who believe that "feminine = degrading".

I really fail to understand how this is not obvious. Men and women ARE different, and thus the clothing reflects those differences. There is no reason to "hide" those differences by trying to force everyone to dress the same. Why would anyone want this, unless a person was ashamed of his/her body in the first place?

[Aegis]

Yes I know, I really thought I was going to stop replying here but I kinda fell for it again. I am sorry, I really meant to stop, believe me :/

I think I have already answered to your question in my previous reply, tho. To summarize - the reason for which women can "crossdress" while men can't is simply because male garments are usually more neutral. Think about jeans, for example - they are worn by females all around the world now, and why is that? Because they are trousers. Simple trousers. Why don't men wear striped, schoolgirl-styled skirts, tho? Because, aestetichally, it would be HORRIBLE with male hairy legs sprouting underneath.

Also, funnily enough, women are the ones who started to dress more "manly": no more high heels, no more skirts, less makeup, baggy clothes. it was THEIR choice when they started believing that men were superior, and thus "dressing like men was cool".
I can assure you that, generally speaking, males prefer females who dress like females - as much as females like males who dress like damned males and not like Hildibrand at the beach.

Men dress in skirts and dresses all over the world and all through history. Greek warriors wore leather skirts, Scots still wear Kilts (though it has be said, mostly on Burn's day and at Weddings) and neither are accused of femininity. Indeed, Scottish plaid is one of the most common patterns for school skirts.

Dresses and wraps are traditionally common across the Pacific.

Cuban heels are not seen as feminine.

Hell, there's a transvestite working not 50 yards from me across the office. He's quite a funny guy and has a string of girlfriends that I know of. He doesn't appear to have a problem attracting the ladies.

[Ashkendor]

I totally agree with you. Some female players (two friends) don't like how some female-version of attires looks on, and its a shame to see them being glamoured it to some cloth-based.

I'm in total agreement here. I honestly really dislike the fact that the Patrician's set looks like a snazzy suit on a dude and a hooker's working clothes on a girl. seriously. There's nothing like running around Urth's Gift slapping water sprites around or sitting in my FC house crafting with my character's panties showing and her boobs hanging out for everyone to see. My issue isn't with skimpy clothes in general (I use the guardian corps skirt in my BLM glamour and the cashmere skirt of aiming on my bard) but with the fact that I don't have a choice in the matter. I don't want to look like that when I'm sitting around crafting. Not to mention, when I fantasia'd to a female character, I'd totally forgotten about the 'stab me here' belly window in the DRG artifact gear too. Now I kinda want to glamour something completely different, which is saying something because I went to the trouble and cost of making an augmented set when the character was male. :|

[Remilia_Nightfall]

snip

I explicitly used "schoolgirl-styled skirts" as an example, not scottish kilts or wizard robes or cuban heels. I never said "all robes and skirt-like clothing is exclusively for females". I was speaking of pieces of clothing deliberately designed either for men or for women.

Wait, let me do a visual example using Japanese school uniforms:






Which one do you find less stupid?

Wait, you're telling me a feudal japanese noblewoman was happy to exploit war orphans and prostitutes? Say it ain't so.

The Wikipedia article has not a single cited reference of them wearing revealing clothing.

Tbh it is a rather well-known fact to any student of Japanese history (possessing a degree in that, I can testify to it). Courtesans and prostitutes were absolutely ideal to act as Kunoichi as they could get closer to their target quite easily by using their body as lure.
It's nothing surprising, really. And yes, orphans were often raised as spies acting as courtesans / prostitutes. This is how "ninja" were born - hardly anyone became a "ninja" of its own volition. The ninja were outlaws, criminals, and were despised by both the common folks and the noble, Samurai caste.

The modern media created the magical / martial idea of the "honorable ninja" which is now seen everywhere, but historically they were the lowest trash.

[Ageofwar]

I would like to thank everyone for making this the only really interesting thread in the forum at the moment the rest are quite franky boring.

alot of people are taking about having a choice of armor in the game which most of which are neutral between the sexes and for the armors that have good stats that you don't like the look of you have the glamor prism system.

I can't seen the reason why people are arguing over a few armor set that at best you will never use curreny on or will very quickly just throw into armoire

from what I am seeing on my datacenter (Primal) a good number of female are making the choice of glamor prism there ilvl 120-130 neutal gear with ilvl 1 bikini's

[Riepah]

I don't have a choice in the matter. I don't want to look like that when I'm sitting around crafting.

Now I kinda want to glamour something completely different

What is it now, do you have no choice or is there a glamour system that allows you to wear something you like better?

[LineageRazor]

I think I have already answered to your question in my previous reply, tho. To summarize - the reason for which women can "crossdress" while men can't is simply because male garments are usually more neutral. Think about jeans, for example - they are worn by females all around the world now, and why is that? Because they are trousers. Simple trousers. Why don't men wear striped, schoolgirl-styled skirts, tho? Because, aestetichally, it would be HORRIBLE with male hairy legs sprouting underneath.

Why are men's clothes neutral? Because being a MAN is normal. Being a woman is abnormal. Recognize the double standard? This is the attitude men (and women!) in the entertainment industry are accustomed to, and that the audience has come to expect. It is not inherently natural by any means, but the result of centuries of culture that we're slowly managing to overcome.

Hairy legs are unappealing? YOU find them unappealing, obviously. Likely most heterosexual men find them unappealing. Gay/bi men and het women? A matter of taste, to be sure, but there's enough bara artwork out there for me to rest easy saying that, hell yes, they are sexy to an awful lot of people. Your arguments come from a distinctly heterosexual male perspective, and while that may be natural since you are a heterosexual male, your arguments have the disturbing air that the heterosexual male view is the correct and natural view, the one that developers should cater to. Other views are unnatural and "disturbing".

Also, to the people saying that this thread is pointless, and should be closed - you're partly right. This thread started with a silly video lampshading the "battle bikini" popularized by fantasy, and evolved (or devolved?) into a serious discussion on objectification of women in video games and other entertainment media. As such, it has strayed from the original topic rather drastically.

It's important, though, to bear these double standards in mind. I don't think that there's a lot of us here that watched that video and were confused by it. You watched it, and chuckled along because yes, you understand that the sexualzation of women's "armor" compared to men is ridiculous and clearly meant to be titilating. You recognize the double standard for what it is.

None of us fail to recognize the double standard. The point of debate is whether or not the double standard is HARMFUL. I personally don't think so. As long as you can clearly understand what is fantasy and what is not, you're fine. As long as you treat REAL humans like human beings and not sex toys, as long as you believe and understand that real humans are human beings and not sex toys, it honestly doesn't matter WHAT kind of depraved porn floats your boat. Fantasy is fantasy. Reality is reality.

[Ashkendor]

What is it now, do you have no choice or is there a glamour system that allows you to wear something you like better?

Right, cause I'm totally gonna glamour every set that I spiritbond or wear to level up. >.>

Those two quotes were also about completely different things. Patrician's set and DRG artifact gear. You must have missed the part where the DRG gear is something that I've glamoured to and I'm thinking of changing. >.>